TIH 559: Eric LaRocca on Commercial vs. Artistic Considerations when Writing, When To Listen and When To Talk, and Revisiting Everything The Darkness Eats

Add 3 minutes and 10 seconds to each timestamp for the audio. This transcript is for the video.

00:02.74

Michael David Wilson

Eric welcome back to this as horror podcast.

00:04.36

Eric LaRocca

Thank you so much Michael I'm really excited to be here and chatting with you about all things horror I'm so excited you know I love the show and it's just great to come back on as a guest.

00:16.75

Michael David Wilson

Yeah, it is always great to have you here and your conversations with you I greatly look forward to them I think talking to you and talking to Josh Malliman it's like yes I always know. That it's going to be a good time that I'm going to come away invigorated and perhaps we're even going to bleed a little I mean hopefully not literally, but we've got the video on should that happen?

00:43.70

Eric LaRocca

You never know with me around you never know.

00:50.13

Michael David Wilson

I mean the last time that we had a conversation it was in the summer of last year so as I often like to ask I wonder what some of the biggest changes for you have been in that time both personally and professionally.

01:07.84

Eric LaRocca

Yeah, um, it has been since last summer that seems like it seems like just yesterday we were chatting. Um, but yeah, as far as like professional changes. Um, you know, just working on a lot of new stories and.

01:25.11

Eric LaRocca

And novels you know editing a lot of new pieces and um I actually just finished copy edits today for a novel that we have not announced yet but we are hoping to announce. Um, next week or the week after I don't know when this is going to air but hopefully like end of March we're going to announce. Um, and I'm really excited because this project has been like brewing for a couple years now and I worked with an amazing editor on this one and. Ah, the cover art looks amazing and everything's kind of just we're kind of just preparing everything ahead of time to go so that we can make like this huge announcement. Um, and I think people's faces are just going to like melt when they see you know what we have in store for them. Um, so that's been that's been really cool. Um, personal stuff. You know I'm still in Boston ah, still writing a lot in Boston. So with my partner Ali and we're just enjoying enjoying time together and spending time with my family and. Ah, spending time with friends going to events I'm going to go to stoker con at the end of may which is really exciting because everything the darkness eats is nominated for ah superior achievement and in a first novel so that's really cool. Um.

02:53.98

Eric LaRocca

Yeah, just a lot of good stuff on the horizon I feel like.

02:56.96

Michael David Wilson

And I mean you mentioned the nomination for every link the darkness eats and so I recall the last time that we spoke you had been a little disappointed with the initial. Response the initial release of everything that darkness eats and so I mean one of the things you'd done is you'd put out a kind of different addition with a different ending and I recall saying to you. Yeah, you shouldn't be disappointed because this is a marathon isn't a sprint and who is so near the start of the race If we're going to continue with this Bizarre analogy. Well if we fast Forward. It's been nominated for numerous awards. It's been on various best of year lists. So I'm wondering have your feelings changed in terms of the world. Yeah, just the feelings towards everything the darkness eats and its success.

04:06.53

Eric LaRocca

Yes, and no, um, it's obviously I would be lying if I said that I was you know, not grateful for the for the nomination I'm incredibly grateful for this nomination from. Bram Stoker awards and um, I'm so so delighted that the book has been like basically validated by my peers. That's an incredible incredible feeling um I I do have very complex. Feelings about that book and I I still struggle with it sometimes but it's crazy because that book continues to open doors for me that I never imagined that it would um for instance. Ah. There's been a little bit of movie interest behind the scenes with that book and um I don't know if anything's going to come of it. But um, it's it's just it's it's very very humbling to know that people are responding to that piece and ah. It's making its way into the world and I think if anything I do regret being somewhat vocal about my disappointment with the book's reception because when a book is released into the world. You know you give it over to the public you give it over to readers and.

05:35.74

Eric LaRocca

However, they choose to interpret that book that gift that offering it's up to them and it no longer really belongs to you I know some people may not agree with that. But um, you know a book is is a gift that you give to the world I think and a book's life cycle. Ah, normal book's life cycle is some people love it. Some people hate it. Some people are inbe between on it. You know you get 5 stars. You get 1 star. You get 3 stars it it just it varies and it's a normal healthy life cycle for a book. Um. And that's all I could ask for and that's basically what I received with this book and I received even more with this book I received like you said that you know a couple best of 2023 lists which was incredible and also the the nomination from the horror writers association was. Was very just it. It really perked me up a lot with what I'd been going through and um to just to receive that validation I know I shouldn't put so much emphasis on validation from from others I know I should look inward for that. But. I'm not a robot and I I do crave that validation from other people and I I yearned to be told that you know I did something correct that I that I wrote well that I wrote a good book. Um, that to me is.

07:11.73

Eric LaRocca

It's ah it's what defines me a lot of the time I I struggle because I I know I need to separate myself from my work more. But um, my writing is so intertwined with my being It's hard to separate myself from it. Um. So you know to get back to answering your question my my relationship with the book has not changed but it has softened a lot which is which is great which is really a great step back toward. You know what? how I felt when I first wrote it when I first was. Falling in love with those characters when I was falling in love with the setting of Henley's Edge Connecticut um, and I'm really excited to see where the book continues to take me just like all of my other books I'm I'm really excited for you know the future and and what the future holds.

08:06.81

Michael David Wilson

Yeah I don't think you know you you should regret it or I guess like I wouldn't regret being vocal in in the way that you were because I think first of all. It was with the best of intentions you didn't do it in a way that was disparaging to readers to the publisher to to anyone. You know the the only person you might have sometimes been disparaging to is is yourself. You never kind of did. Did anything negative towards anyone else and I think what is really beneficial about just being honest and being raw and being authentic is that it allows other readers and writers and professionals to to see that. You know this is a human reaction and actually it's okay to sometimes feel disappointed I mean I I think if the vast majority of us were to be honest, we all probably have disappointments with nearly. Every release because unless we're Stephen King there is always going to be someone who's doing a little bit and maybe a lot better than we are so I think in being public with those struggles and those disappointments said.

09:35.90

Michael David Wilson

Allows other people to do that as well and you know in a kind of age where it's all curated highlights and the best of on social media. It's good to be reminded that actually this is Reality. So I Think. What you did was a good thing and I think you did it in the best possible way because you not only kind of humanize the whole experience but you didn't disparage anyone else along the way so you couldn't have done it better than that.

10:08.60

Eric LaRocca

I'm really glad that you think that of of me and ah, you know how my feelings toward the book I I've noticed that you know as my platform continues to grow in horror and publishing I've become a little bit more. Guarded and a little bit more carefully curating what I put out there. Um, just because I don't I don't I hate to say I don't want to upset anybody but I also do want to upset people with my work. My fiction. Um, but me as a person i. I want to be a decent human and a decent like role model in horror and um, you know someone who is ah just kindhearted and generous and loving That's that's what I want to be as as a human being as a. As a public figure and an author. Um, so I definitely struggle with what should I put out should I be more vulnerable should I tweet this thought. Um I don't necessarily think you should tweet like your every feeling. Um. But because feelings are just so fleeting and how you feel 1 minute is just you know you're not going to feel the same in 10 minutes An hour um it depends I guess but I I really have noticed that I've felt like this pressure and it's not from I don't feel like it's from anybody.

11:38.20

Eric LaRocca

Around me or anybody that I think is like watching me but rather just this pressure I put on myself to be perfect and just not ah, not be not be as ah, like vulnerable with with people but I do realize like. That vulnerability shows your humanity and people can really connect with that more like you said like you know it shows the humanness that we go through with with releases because obviously every release is not going to be. Amazing unless we're Stephen King or you know Neil Gaiman ah you know some releases are going to hit and then some other releases just aren't going to be as successful as as other ones and that's something that I'm also coming to terms with so it's definitely a learning. Ah, learning curve and I hope I hope I have a lot more years many more years to continue to learn.

12:40.24

Michael David Wilson

And yeah I think we just have to really be true to ourselves. But also do what makes us feel good and just using those 2 things to guide us and.

12:58.56

Michael David Wilson

You know in terms of social media and public presence. It's going to differ from person to person and at different times of that person's life and of their career. So. It really is a a case by case and I mean I I found before my divorce and child custody battle I was more public with my private life. But right now I am a lot more private about my private like I. I Rarely mention it and when I do it's in much vaguer terms and that's just what feels right for me at the moment and you know sometimes there'll be a tweet or or something that I want to put out that is.

13:55.41

Michael David Wilson

Authentic,. But then it doesn't make me feel good I might even draft it up and it's like actually I I don't want to do that and I think there's there's this damaging effect as well where if. A let's say a tweet isn't engaged with a lot then you you start feeling Shitty or you start feeling like it's a reflection on you or that you did something wrong and really a lot of it is part of the algorithm in the system and yeah, you're then kind of projecting your own.

14:30.86

Michael David Wilson

Happiness based on the arbitrary or it or in fact, the very deliberate makings of a machine and that is not a healthy way to live. So I think does it make you feel good. Is it true to yourself and. If. So then you post that and you say that and you you reserve the right to be able to delete it later. You reserve the right to be able to change your mind or to be like right? I know I said this but I got it wrong because I'm human or because yeah I changed you don't. Step into the same river twice. You're not the same person today as you were yesterday.

15:16.25

Eric LaRocca

Absolutely I mean my manager my film Tv manager Ryan Lewis and I have talked about this before and he told me something that always stuck with me and he told me this like long before. Um. Even things have gotten worse since we last spoke came out when um I was kind of like under the radar like you know trying to get more traction trying to publish with more presses and he told me about tweeting in general how if you feel like. What you're tweeting doesn't make you feel good inside. Don't tweet it. But if you look at your tweet draft and you feel like this is good I want to put this out into the world I feel like I'm putting out good energy I feel I will feel happy even if this gets really no engagement whatsoever. It's not about the engagement. It's just about me putting a little blip out into the into the universe and you know maybe someone will respond or see it. He said you know if you feel that way about a tweet or a post on Facebook or Instagram then post it. But never tweet or post from a place of like rage or anger or upset. Um I feel like that leads to a lot of just really awful like what could be really awful interactions. It's so difficult to navigate now and I feel like.

16:44.28

Eric LaRocca

It's not even called Twitter anymore. It's called x but I feel like that platform. Um, you know it just has shifted so much over the past year and but I feel like other apps have also shifted too. So I feel like everybody's just like scrambling. Trying to find a sense of like what's actually going on like where are we where are we congregating now and um I think it'll settle down in time I think we'll we'll establish a a place like soon enough. But um, yeah for for the most part when I look at something I want to post. Um. Especially on on Twitter Slash X like I really think am I happy doing this like am I do I find joy posting about this.

17:32.92

Michael David Wilson

And yeah, and I think related to that as Well. Sometimes people post out of obligation or that you know they feel that they need to they feel like I haven't said anything for a while and you know it's okay to remain. Silent You don't have to if if you've got nothing to say then just respect that that's fine I mean that kind of applies to a lot of issues as Well. I mean there's all sorts of complicated things going on in the world and.

18:11.67

Michael David Wilson

I Often don't publicly weigh in on these things because I'm not an authority I'm not the person you should be listening to and actually I'm just trying to listen I'm trying to find out what's going on and there are times to be.

18:27.32

Eric LaRocca

Yep.

18:31.70

Michael David Wilson

The talker there are times to be the listener.

18:34.65

Eric LaRocca

I'm so glad you said that because I'm someone I prefer to listen more than anything I'm very backseat kind of person like I stuff like this like I mean this is a friendly conversation. So. It's fine. But like I. I Don't love getting up in front of people and talking like I'm some authority figure like I'm some expert on you know the craft of writing and you know because it's all so subjective. It's all so like user preference like who am I to dictate how you write a story or how you. Develop a character or whatever. Um, so I prefer to kind of sit back and listen I'm not someone that like absolutely loves to talk constantly? Um I I feel like if you're if you're not listening then you're not really learning. And I feel like we really as a society we really need more people who are interested in learning than they are in just like talking.

19:37.50

Michael David Wilson

Yeah, yeah, absolutely and you said before that in in the past year and I think it's unarguable that your popularity has risen. Ah. And you've been speaking about some of the knock on effects of that. But I mean I just wonder and there's not There's not a intricately formed question here. But you know how do you. Feel about that. How are you reacting both the good and the bad it sounds like you feel more a weight of responsibility in terms of your public persona. But how is that affecting you on a deeper level and how.

20:26.80

Eric LaRocca

Okay.

20:30.50

Michael David Wilson

If at all does that even affect the writing or the creative process. How does that affect your personal life.

20:39.70

Eric LaRocca

It's a great question because it elements have seeped into my personal life and my writing a little bit I do feel a little bit of responsibility I feel a weight ah to. Either address certain things or ah analyze certain aspects of queerness of queer identity. Um, it's it's difficult because I don't want to be a spokesperson for you know. The entire lgb t q plus community um I don't want to be just like a like a mouthpiece. Um, but I also recognize the fact that people are interested in my work and they're interested in what I'm going to write about which is. So surreal to me and I'm so so incredibly grateful for everybody who picks up one of my books and reads it like actually reads it cover to cover. Um, and even if you give it like 1 or 2 stars like I'm still so incredibly grateful that you took time out of your life. To read something that I wrote. Um so I feel not only a responsibility for addressing certain issues and you know behaving a certain way something you know someone with like dignity and respect. But I also feel a responsibility to deliver.

22:12.65

Eric LaRocca

Really quality writing and I feel that responsibility. It's more pronounced more than ever. Um, especially as I you know, move up to bigger publishing houses and ah you know work with more. Ah, higher higher profile people. Um, you know the novel that we're going to be announcing at the end of this month. It's a partnership with I probably shouldn't say this but I'm going to say it anyway, it's a partnership with an a list hollywood actor. And it's it's incredible like his his reach he is like ah he's a fan of my work and he really believes in me and he contact his his agent contacted me like the month after things have gotten worse came out the original edition in 2021 and we've been setting this up for like 3 years now um so I feel an incredible amount of responsibility now and um. Like I said I am trying to separate myself more from my work. But it's really difficult because so much of me informs my work and so much of my like essence and being is like just infused in what I write about Um, so it's really hard to separate.

23:41.99

Eric LaRocca

Myself in a lot of ways. But um, that's why I'm in therapy.

23:46.70

Michael David Wilson

Yeah, yeah, and when you first mentioned this forthcoming novel my interest was piqued I don't know. What we say for the level where it goes beyond peaked but whatever that term is we just hit it when you mentioned the a list celebrity that is involved in it and so. We need to make a decision now because when you when you first mentioned it I don't write well we will have to talk about that when you're next on the show when it's kind of more aligned with that release. But we we have some options here. We could just talk about this and I will put it I will put this episode live once the announcement has been made or we can save it until next time. So I'm going to let you. Cues how we go about that.

24:55.96

Eric LaRocca

Um, why don't we save it for next time. But when we're off the air I'll obviously tell you all about it. It's.

25:02.14

Michael David Wilson

Yeah, that the the video view as they they probably got a bit excited. They they like oh it's like gonna be an announcement I look is sounds very exciting and.

25:15.51

Eric LaRocca

The minute I'm able to yeah the minute I'm able to like really talk about it Publicly I will be screaming about it. Believe me.

25:18.40

Michael David Wilson

We'll get. We'll get there next time and yeah, he.

25:25.58

Michael David Wilson

Yeah, so make sure that you are following Eric on all those social platforms and you're gonna find out I'm looking forward to it but that that's.

25:34.91

Eric LaRocca

Yep.

25:40.90

Michael David Wilson

That's enough of that for now then to be continued in terms of that particular area. But what we absolutely can talk about 1 of the primary reasons that we're here is you have a new collection that will be released imminently.

25:42.58

Eric LaRocca

Yeah, so we continued.

26:00.42

Michael David Wilson

This skin was once mine and I mean you you were talking about this pressure to deliver quality writing particularly as your your star is rising to use another terrible metaphor. But last year I mean with the the trees grew because I bled there I would say that was one of the short story collections of the year so to write a second short story collection. The following year. That's a lot of pressure to put on ones self. But I mean it. It was a tough task to follow in my opinion you absolutely achieved it and I mean you've really solidified yourself as. As I put on x as the king the queen the fucking overlord of brutal and disquieting horror. But I mean did you feel a lot of pressure on yourself and. How did this collection come about.

27:18.99

Eric LaRocca

Yeah, well first of all, thank you so much for all your kind words. That's very very sweet of you and I loved what you wrote on x I thought that was amazing. We're gonna use that probably for like a blurb for one of my future buts. Um.

27:29.90

Michael David Wilson

Fantastic.

27:33.80

Eric LaRocca

But as far as like pressure I absolutely felt pressure with with this particular collection just because um, you know the trees grew because I bled There was really well received last year and it received really great write ups in like library Journal I think. Gave it a starred or maybe book list gave it a starred review. Um, publishers weekly liked it and they're a tough nut to crack. So I Thought that was that was excellent. Um, So yeah I went into this with a lot of pressure and you know as I've said before. My opinion of everything. The darkness eats has been really Complex. So The fact that that was my last release before this one I felt an enormous pressure that I really need to raise the bar and write something that I'm really that I'm really passionate about really proud of not that I'm not. Passionate about darkness or proud of that book like I am but I really wanted to write something that resonated with people that maybe resonated with people who read some of my material before and maybe didn't like it didn't care for it. Um. I I just wanted to write something that was powerful and that was attractive to to horror fans and you know based on the the preliminary reviews I've seen because I do I do sometimes check you know good reads and Net Galley I know I'm not.

29:07.70

Eric LaRocca

Probably supposed to but I'm curious and I do look sometimes and I've been really pleased to see people receiving it so well and saying such a really lovely things about about the skin was once mine. Um, as far as like how it came to be It came to be like quite organic if I recall correctly I wrote the title tail the skin was once mine maybe like two or three years ago and at the time you know I had. And in with titan I still obviously am still connected with titan and they're putting out a lot more of my books but my agent said to me, you know we should really consider pitching them another book for you because we had already gotten a deal with things have gotten worse and the trees grew because I bled there. So I had this novella and my agent said you know we can we can pitch it to them. But it really needs to be like a longer book. We really need like more more stories like maybe we could do like a collection so I spent the next like the year or 2 ah. Writing these other tales I and I pretty much wrote them in the order that they appear in the collection. So I wrote this skin was one's mine first and then seedling and then all the parts of you that won't easily burn and then finally prickle was the last piece.

30:37.87

Eric LaRocca

And when I collected all of them I really noticed that there was a through line running through the stories. Ah just about like trauma ah trauma and ah love like how we kind of how we harm the people that we. Supposedly Love. Um, and that's really the the main like selling point like how we pitched the collection to Titan Um, and you know obviously my editor was really smitten with the idea and really really liked the stories. So. It was a win for us and that's kind of how it came to be and it's been.. It's been great I mean I feel like the trees grew because I bled There is really special in my heart I Love those stories I feel like this pete. This collection is a really great companion piece. That book and maybe like further explores some of the ideas that I was analyzing in that book. Um, and now it's I feel like it's almost like a ah trilogy of short story collections because you have my first Titan collection which is things have gotten worse. And other misfortunes and then you have the tree screw because I bled there and then finally you have the skin was once mine. So It's like a nice little trilogy that they all kind of like interact with one another and I honestly feel like this might be the last collection I do for a while um I haven't really been writing.

32:14.51

Eric LaRocca

That many short stories lately I've really been working a lot on like longer longer form novels um and really developing that muscle that writing Muscle. Um, but I I you know I Love this this collection and I'm. Really happy that it resonated with you.

32:34.91

Michael David Wilson

And yeah, and I mean I felt that this was even more depraved and even more about human cruelty than the previous collection which for people who have read the previous One. We know what do you Mean. There's more human cruelty. How is that even possible and well you just got to pick it up and and and read it to find out but I found it interesting that you said that the order of the story is.

33:05.41

Eric LaRocca

Yeah.

33:10.39

Michael David Wilson

Is pretty much the order in which you wrote them because for me, it felt like there was an escalation and so this had been so deliberately a meticulously curated that you'd you'd look through the stories.

33:28.31

Michael David Wilson

Looked at what order to put them in but actually this is just how it organically came out but it as well and I know that I'm not the first person to to say this but the ending of the final story.

33:33.38

Eric LaRocca

Yeah.

33:45.90

Michael David Wilson

The final line of the final story I mean it it honestly it it it not just completes that story but it completes the trilogy of collections and it it felt almost like I'd finished a. Concept Album you know, listening to a concept album and it really yeah, it really messed me up I I mean I knew. And we were going to talk about the stories in order but we we might just jump into talking about prick or right now. But I knew because of the way that it had been set up.

34:24.77

Eric LaRocca

Sure.

34:33.19

Michael David Wilson

And because it's an Eric Laroca story that we were going to get a massive escalation but I didn't know it was going to quite jump as much as it did and I wonder I mean. Titan books they're they're a fairly commercial outfit. They've got other things to consider as well as the art and so were there any barriers was there. Any.

35:10.94

Michael David Wilson

Discussion or doubt as to whether you could do some of the things that you did with this collection and specifically with this story.

35:23.70

Eric LaRocca

I'm really glad you brought that up because ah, it's absolutely true I mean titan books is ah is a really huge publisher in the U K and they have a pretty decent publicity arm here in the Us. Um. But they absolutely have other things to consider. They don't you know they don't typically publish like extreme transgressive in your face horror. Um, so there there wasn't a ton of pushback from titan. There was a little bit of pushback from my agent and manager before we even got the collection to titan because they said something very similar. They were like you know we're pitching this to titan we want to make sure like we have the best shot at getting this in with them. Ah, because some of the things here are pretty graphic and pretty obscene and I know we're talking about prickle now. But this applies to the the title story. The skin was one's mind there were a lot more ah scenes of child abuse and ah. You know graphic depictions of that in in that story and I I really had to to edit them a lot of ah, pretty much all of them out just because we wanted to make sure that you know we probably could have sent it to titan and.

36:52.78

Eric LaRocca

See what they said. But um, there were elements of it that my agent thought were like a little bit problematic. Um you know, even down to like the well I guess we can get into spoilers. Maybe do you think we should and or.

37:07.38

Michael David Wilson

Yeah, yeah, and I mean it might be that even in answering this question we we jump back to this skin and then in the end we do cover them. In order pet people should know with this is our conversations with us. Let's could go in any direction we're with we're talking about all 4 of the stories we we may do them in Order. We may jump between them. That's just how it goes but.

37:36.52

Michael David Wilson

But yeah I I think I mean I guess before any spoiler just give a kind of spoiler warning and give people an idea as to like what? What's the severity of of the spoiler is it going to potentially spoil the whole. Story or is it just like a little thematic concern.

37:58.44

Eric LaRocca

Yeah, so I mean this would be like a pretty big spoiler for this skin was one's mind. So if you haven't read the book yet you know pause pause now and if you don't want it Spoiled. Don't listen to what I'm about to say um, but basically. The skin was once mine. It's I'll just give you like a a little rundown of of what it's about it's about a young woman who ah receives word that her father has passed away and she is asked to return back to her family home. She has She's been estranged from her mother for. Past twenty years. She's really been like forced to live outside of her her family home for most of her life was sent away to boarding school and just was not allowed to live at home was basically like abandoned by her parents and she returns back to the family estate and there's like. A little bit of like gothic tropes going on. You know she's like exploring the house and you know things seem off and she discovers a secret in her father's her father's past and the secret is the fact that the father had been Keeping. Ah. Ah, child in the in a bunker inside the house and had been keeping it keeping this child alive in this young woman's and his other daughter's Absence. Um, so when I pitched this to my Agent. Um.

39:32.50

Eric LaRocca

Like you know there were some scenes that were probably a little bit too much that were that you know we had to cut and also like the age of the young the young girl that was being Kept. We had to you know, kind of address that because it seemed like maybe it wouldn't be a good idea to have her. Such a young age. Ah, you know we just had to kind of like finagle it so it would be like I hate to say the word palatable. But um, we just had to rework certain elements of the book to really? um. To get the story where we needed it to be so that it could be presentable to tighten. Um, but I'm you know I'm very proud of that story I'd been working on it for a while and there are times when I look back on it and I think you know I kind of wish I I did kept keep some of those elements that. I was kind of I was fighting for that I wanted to keep in there. Ah but I look at the finished product at the finished story and I feel like a lot of satisfaction I feel like it works the way it's supposed to I feel like maybe those scenes didn't really add. Much to the conversation other than just being gratuitous and you know just being like violence. Ah so I think you know for any authors listening it Really it really behooves you to look at the motivation for writing a story and writing.

41:04.60

Eric LaRocca

Certain scenes is this story just an excuse for a certain scene to happen. Ah I remember listening to Ellen Datlow talk about certain stories. Ah, and why certain stories don't work for her when she's looking to curate her best horror of the year collections. And she had said that a lot of stories. She reads for consideration. Don't work because they end up being excuses for horrific scenes to happen so you have an entire an entire short story that exists to serve. You know a punch line at the end of the piece like a really graphic set piece. Ah and and that to her is just not interesting and I I kind of I kind of agree with what she's saying I think that you know there should be something more There should be something more to say when violence is at play in in these horror pieces.

42:07.34

Michael David Wilson

And knowing how you felt about everything the darkness is and particularly knowing that you felt that with the initial release you held back a bit with the bleakness with. Going full Eric Larocca and I do hope that that will become a verb in common parlance soon I imagine that there must have been if not reluctance then it must have created. Require a great deal of thought as to whether you did or you didn't want to edit these scenes out because I imagined that you were conscious that you didn't want to have a similar feeling.

42:57.76

Eric LaRocca

Yeah, yeah.

43:00.17

Michael David Wilson

Answer the one you'd had with everything the darkness Eats. So I mean it'd be fascinating if you could talk us more through that dilemma and I suppose The. Kind of difficulty of trying to work out. Okay am I cutting something here that will ultimately compromise my art for commercial consideration and potential success or am I cutting something here which. Will serve the story and is ultimately the right choice So talk us through that and I mean I'd also be interested in what these discussions looked like with your agent and your manager What was the. Back and forth when you have a discussion or a negotiation like this do you have some rules in terms of what you might compromise and what you won't is the word compromise. Incorrect because you won't actually compromise. But if someone can change your mind then that's the kind of route that you'll go down.

44:23.29

Eric LaRocca

Yeah, absolutely I mean just to speak about. Um you know negotiations with my agent and manager it is always done with ah humility and respect. It's never. Never feel like ganged up on I never feel like oh well we have to cut this ah with this piece in particular I recall I think it was maybe two years ago we talked about this. We all got on a conference call and. The 3 of us just talked through the story and what we needed to change with the elements I needed to get rid of ah and it you know parts of it were hard to hear at the time just because you know like you said I had. I had neutered everything the darkness eats a little bit for commercial for in order to be more commercial for like marketability basically and I really didn't want to do that with this piece. But as you you find out when you work with these bigger publishers. They are very. You know against taking risks and they really don't love pieces that are you know too graphic or too in your face. Um titan's been great because titan hasn't really changed.

45:51.54

Eric LaRocca

Much of what I've written and that's been great. Um I am working with them on my upcoming trilogy of books and there there are a lot of elements in those books that are very graphic and very disturbing. Um, and we're looking at ways to maybe soften some of those moments a little bit because they're just so unforgiving and harsh right now. Um, but like that's what I love you know what? I mean and like I love. Those moments of brutality where like there is no hope and there is no light and there's just only suffering like I love that shit in fiction and it's hard to walk into those meetings and you know receive those notes but as far as like the skin was one's mine. I I felt like if I took out what was objectionable I felt like I wouldn't be neutering the story if that makes sense because the story still ends on a very bleak note it still ends you know, ah with a. But hopelessness with that kind of despair that I think I've kind of become known for with my my short horror fiction. Um, so I felt I felt okay with these changes when I when I received them from like Priya and Ryan. Ah.

47:26.56

Eric LaRocca

And I felt like it wouldn't undermine what I was trying to say with with this piece because the piece is about trauma but you don't necessarily need to constantly show that trauma that suffering I mean you can infer it. You can hint at it and it's it doesn't lessen What the piece is about and sometimes what you don't see is more frightening than what you do see and what I hope is that it kind of. Forces readers to use their imagination more and think oh my goodness like you know this poor girl that was kind of kept down here in this this bunker. You know what? What else did she suffer from this from this man like how else did she. Did she suffer and endure such Agony Um, so looking back on it I Really don't regret any of the changes I made to this to this story. Um, and in fact, there were ah elements in. Further on in the collection in all the parts of you that won't easily burn that I really thought Titan was going to push back on especially like the ending of that piece and I remember saying to my agent I remember saying like you know if my editor says you know we have to make changes and make edits.

48:53.83

Eric LaRocca

Like I will make those edits because at the end of the day I want to play ball I I I want my books out there and I want people I want readers I Want people interacting with my with my vision. Um, and for me, you kind of have to. Compromise a little bit sometimes when you're working with other people and you're work. You know you're working at a big publishing house Now. You have to you have to be a team player. Basically.

49:24.13

Michael David Wilson

Yeah I think this is something that we've touched on in previous conversations. But I also feel this is an endless dichotomy for writers and for creatives and it's the whole. Wanting to create something artistic and authentic and that represents you and your story and your vision but also to put it crudely to make money you know if we're doing this as. Ah, full time job or even a part-time but substantial part of our income then that does have to be a consideration and so I mean is this something you think about a lot. And I mean since you've been doing this full time has that shifted the way that you approach art have you thought about things in terms of. The future I mean may maybe there are some roles where it's like right if I'm making or if I've made X amount of money then actually instead of compromise more I'll compromise less because I've now got this safety blanket and.

50:50.66

Michael David Wilson

I mean it is something I consider quite a bit because I mean yes, we want to make money. But if this was solely about making money then we could train as lawyers or accountants or investment bankers or doctors or whatever of a job. We decided would have the sufficient amount of money that would make us happy. Although ultimately we would realize that money can't make you happy and that comes from within but you know what? What do you think in terms of on on this.

51:27.86

Michael David Wilson

Area and how it affects your concerns both daily and indeed in terms of your career and the trajectory.

51:36.76

Eric LaRocca

Absolutely I mean I I definitely think of it daily because as you said I do right now full time so it is my it's my full time gig I think I've kind of rationalized it to the point where I think to myself when I go into these. Rooms with editors and like my agent and my manager I know that if I put out something completely raw that hadn't been touched by other hands that hadn't been edited that hadn't been ah, you know. Looked at that hadn't been vetted I know for a fact, it would not be a piece of quality and I know that by pushing it through these channels by pushing it through like an editor at Titan and editor wherever I know that they're going to bring. Um, a level of skill and like a level of intellect to the piece and really help me hone my vision hone my craft and make it something really special and I trust them I trust my editor I Trust. My agent and my manager and I know that when they tell me something and they express a concern I know it's in my best interest to at least listen to them and consider what they're saying um there are times that I've pushed back and there's.

53:11.25

Eric LaRocca

Certainly been recent times where ah you know? For instance, the trilogy that I'm working on for Titan ah there are scenes that I've been asked to maybe not cut entirely but refocus some of the action so that it's not so graphic and not. So um, just unpleasant to read and I I know why that note why I'm getting that note and I know that I know that I need to look at those scenes and maybe massage them a little bit. Um, so at the end of the day. It's I know that it's it doesn't come from a place of you know Eric doesn't know what he's doing. We have to like completely do an overhaul on everything he's written I know that it comes from a place of love and honor and. They want me to put out the best book possible. Um, there were there were there were ah in fact, it's crazy because the the book that we're announcing I'm sorry to keep teasing you with this the book that we're announcing at the end of may beginning of April. Um, there was a scene at the very end of of the book near the end of the book that was very very graphic and involved a ah small like child and the publisher just would not go for it.

54:47.39

Eric LaRocca

And we I took it out because I feel like the book just wouldn't have been published if we kept it in there like they just weren't going to publish it if I kept that if I fought for it like no sometimes you have to like you have to fold sometimes and you have to just. Like you know what do I want this book to exist. Yeah I do I'm going to have to give in and it's not giving up your autonomy. It's just do you want to play the game or not you know like do you want to be in the game and I want to be in the game. So. I folded and I said ok fine. We'll cut the scene but I look back on that manuscript and I do think that they were right I think they made the right choice because the scene you know without it. It's ah it's fine. It added a punch. The the scene definitely added a punch but maybe we didn't need that at that moment and I'm sure if we had kept it in there. Some readers would have been like this is so gratuitous like why is this in here. You know there's just a million reasons. Why things get cut. Um. So yeah, that's my long rambly answer how I feel about you know commerce versus art and making edits.

56:08.41

Michael David Wilson

Yeah, and even when we cut these scenes I mean as long as we preserve them somewhere on our hard drive then they're always there should there be a need or a curiosity for the. Extreme addition or you know the the special no cuts or maybe there are some cups in a different way. But yeah I mean it? Yeah I I think really much like.

56:25.74

Eric LaRocca

Yeah.

56:31.30

Eric LaRocca

Um, yeah, exactly.

56:44.50

Michael David Wilson

You know when you're posting something publicly whether a scene does or doesn't ultimately get included is is going to vary from book to book from project to project because I mean you know you you got a ah lot of.

57:03.36

Michael David Wilson

Pushback or or quite an angry response from certain readers over one of the scenes in everything the darkness eats. But for you that was a non-negotiable that was absolutely going in but then. With this other forthcoming book. It sounds like it might have been a scene along similar lines in terms of reader response but it was like okay on this occasion it can be Cut. So.

57:33.36

Eric LaRocca

I Think it just depends on the project. Um the the project that's coming out that we haven't announced yet is very bleak to begin with. It's very dark and it just I mean that scene.

57:40.70

Michael David Wilson

Yeah.

57:49.40

Eric LaRocca

It was just like more relentless brutality and at that point the editor was just like there's no point to this right here. So I was like okay fine. We'll cut it. Um, you know I'm not thrilled about that. But that's ok, um, though though there will be an uncensored version. Maybe one day.

58:08.74

Eric LaRocca

Um, and that's the thing like you said like these scenes you know we just save them on our hard drive and then we put them out like 10 years from now and people want the uncensored version.

58:18.30

Michael David Wilson

Yeah, yeah I mean that that's it and I mean that there may even be a curiosity and in decades where you have so many novels worths of these kind of cut scenes and. I mean I think just as a curiosity you could almost put a compendium of cut scenes. It's like look that this is a different type of horror. But if you're if you're in for hit then well strap in here we go.

58:40.48

Eric LaRocca

Um, yeah.

58:51.70

Eric LaRocca

Yeah, that's not a bad idea. Actually it's.

58:54.79

Michael David Wilson

Here.