TIH 614: Michael David Wilson on Daddy’s Boy (with Jasper Bark, Dan Howarth, and Bob Pastorella)

Michael David Wilson 0:28
Welcome to This Is Horror, a podcast for readers, writers and creators. I'm Michael David Wilson, and every episode, alongside my co host, Bob Pastorella, we chat with the world's best writers about writing, life lessons, creativity and much more. Now today is a little bit different, because it is the first in a series of daddy's boy episodes. Daddy's boy is the new novel that I've just released in paperback, ebook and audio, and for this opening episode, I am interviewed by Jasper bark, Dan Howarth and Bob Pastorella. So let's take a little advert break, and then we'll get into the episode for everything dad is boy a

Bob Pastorella 1:25
brutal attack during a peaceful drive to the Irish countryside. Sets the stage for a grotesque tale of body horror, medical abuse and occult conspiracy theory. Puppets banquet by Valkyrie le crew, Clay mcphile. Chapman calls it a blissful injury upon the reader's psyche. Fans of Silent Hill Hellraiser and Cronenberg's the brood will be consumed by its exquisite nightmares puppets banquet out May 14, visit tenepresspress.com for more information.

RJ Bayley 1:57
It was as if the video had unzipped my skin slunk inside my tapered flesh and become one with me.

Bob Pastorella 2:05
From the creator of This Is Horror comes a new nightmare for the digital age. The Girl in the Video by Michael David Wilson, after a teacher receives a weirdly arousing video, his life descends in a paranoia and obsession. More videos follow, each containing information no stranger could possibly know, but who's sending them and what do they want? The answers may destroy everything and everyone he loves. The Girl in the Video is the ring meets fatal attraction from iPhone generation, available now in paperback, ebook and audio.

Michael David Wilson 2:34
Okay? Without said, Here it is. It's me. Michael, David Wilson on This Is Horror.

Dan Howarth 2:48
Welcome to This Is Horror. I'm guest host Dan Howarth, and I'm joined today by Bob Pastorella. Hello, everybody. And Jasper bark, hi, Jasper.

Jasper Bark 2:59
Hi, yeah, have to confess right from the off, I'm not actually recording this from my home. I'm up visiting my mum. So this is being recorded in the Cumbrian women's Correctional Facility, which has super broadband. I'm actually in a broom closet, as you can see. But if the screws come, I'll be like

Dan Howarth 3:24
and in that vein, Jesus, we are here to interview Michael David Wilson about his brand new novel, daddy's boy. So Michael, welcome to your own podcast.

Michael David Wilson 3:36
Thank you very much. I've heard good things about the co host, Bob Pastorella, and the less we say about the original host, the better. But good to be here,

Dan Howarth 3:49
good to have you, good to have you. I am here as the ghost of podcast past to help you promote your new novel. So let's crack on. Shall we and talk about daddy's boy. So Michael, you're the host of this podcast normally, and one of the things that you like to do with guests is, when you get them on, you say, tell us about your first experiences with story. Now I'm pretty sure, as a guest host, in the past, I've asked you this question. So one of the things I want to ask you to kick us off is tell us about your experiences with story since the last time you were the guest on your own podcast. So what have you taken in that's new, different, challenging, what's changed in your writing,

Michael David Wilson 4:37
or in my writing or in my reading,

Dan Howarth 4:40
either whichever you think is most impactful. Okay,

Michael David Wilson 4:43
so I guess the last time that I was a guest on my podcast would have been for House of bad memories. So about a year, a year and a half ago. And I mean, I mean, because I don't always record. Oh, wow. What was I reading one and a half years ago? Let's just start with what I'm doing immediately what I've been reading recently. So I recently read a author called Sayaka Murata, who has written the Japanese book convenience store woman. And she also wrote the short story collection, life ceremonies. And I'm always looking for new and interesting offers. And what I particularly like about her work is like what I would say that the best stories are. It's so difficult to put in a genre box. I mean, on some levels to begin with, it almost seems like literary commentary on life in Japan. But then there's elements of bizarro and almost what I term WTF fiction. But what I love, and what I love about a lot of dark comedy, which is probably relevant for what we'll be talking about today, is that everything she does, she plays it very straight. So you know, it's not slapstick, it's not being like, Oh, look at me. This is a funny joke, but you'll take a a bizarre or a weird predicament, and then you'll play it as if this is just how life is. So in one of the stories, what's in vogue, what's very fashionable, is buying clothes that are made out of human hair. That is the new thing. That is what everybody's into. That's the must wear item of the season. And then I also believe like, and this is from the life ceremony short story collection. There's a piece where people are consuming human meat. And there's like, kind of conversations about, you know, people eating animal meat and human meat, and then vegetarianism and veganism. And it's like, well, she's like, well, in the past, people were a bit funny about eating animal meat, but you know, then that that went away, and more people did it, and now, now it's human meat. That's what we do, and that's, that's actually part of the life ceremony. The way that you celebrate somebody's life is you go to the funeral, and then you you cook them, you eat the flesh. It's respectful. You know, there's a kind of Christian analogy there. So, so, yeah, Murata just a fascinating author. She's recently, like, a few, a few days ago, in fact, put out a new novel, so I'm very excited to read that one, but I tend to find like as I'm getting older, just my my taste is shifting away from things that are easily put in a genre box. I want not just horror, but horror blended with something else, or, as with this, or for you know, more literature, but with hints and snippets of of horror, which, I mean it is making it in a way, more difficult to host. This Is Horror because, actually, I want to be talking to people who it's like, this is a bit of horror and a bit of something else. So even though I've only mentioned one author at the moment, I guess I've given you quite a lot to to jump off on in terms of, you know, the content, and maybe it says a little bit about my mindset, that that's where I went to begin with.

Dan Howarth 9:01
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, if there's any kind of dry humor in there, or, you know, kind of little smirking anecdotes or whatnot, then that's clearly fed into your writing. The reason why I ask is, you know this, this book is, you know, daddy's boy being a dark comedy for people who you know may not be totally familiar with your writing output might seem like a little bit of a departure from from House, from there watching girl in the video, and whilst house you know had its jokes, I don't think you could overtly say it was as comedic a novel As daddy's boy. So, you know what? What I'm trying to get to the bottom of is, you know, some people might see this, who you know, perhaps don't know you as well as the three of us do, as a little bit of a career left turn. Where's the genesis for daddy's boy? Where's the where's the comedy come from? In terms of your. You know, wanting to kind of maybe branch more in that direction than the over scares or psychological, you know, suspense that might have been in your other books. Yeah,

Michael David Wilson 10:11
that is a huge question. And there are many kind of ways to even try and begin to unpack and to answer that one. But I mean, I've like for as long as I can remember. I've always been interested in horror and dark fiction, and I've also been interested in comedy. And I mean, even when I was at university, as well as writing horror short stories. I was writing just kind of dialog heavy short scripts. And there was never really an intention for them to go anywhere, but they were these comedy sketches. I was purely doing that for fun that was just like a game, to me that was like playing around with words and flexing my writing muscles. But I think for horror fiction, there was a more obvious market and a more obvious route. And so you write the stories, you submit to these genre publishers, these magazines, this is how you get into it. But there's not really a number, at least, that I'm aware of, of purely we are a comedy publisher. So it was a kind of harder route, unless I wanted to get into TV and film. And I mean that that is a hard route. That's not an easy way to go about it. And, you know, whilst I I love writing, I did also wanted to see something happen beyond just I've written the story, it's like, well, can we get it to to an audience? So I think, to begin with, because I had these two loves of horror and comedy. I don't or horror is the one that I'm gravitating towards a little bit more, particularly, you know, as a heavy metal fan as well, like heavy metal and horror go hand in hand. But I've always found that if I try to write something that's horror, I can't help but throw in a few jokes, and if I try to write something that is straight comedy or commercial comedy, I can't help but get a little bit fucked up and just take it to a point where it's like, well, can't put that on BBC One. Maybe we could on Channel Four, but yeah, that's kind of the things that I've always been doing, and I would say with each book that I've put out from with the exception being there watching because that was a collaboration with Bob. But if we look at The Girl in the Video, and then house of bad memories, and now daddy's boy, it gets more and more into comedy. It gets progressively funnier. I think that that was definitely humor and light moments in their watching as well, but I guess I'd put The Girl in the Video, and They're Watching as a companion piece, and kind of in the same mode. Whereas house of bad memories, that was a dark thriller with comedic elements, and now daddy's boy is the inverse. This is the dark comedy with moments of thriller and crime, you know, in terms of what I'm doing and where I'm going with that, I would say that that dad is boy is probably the most comedic piece I will write, or, like, I won't dial up the comedy even further if there's daddy's boy two or which would be daddy's boy comma, T Oh, oh, I think would be quite nice, actually, but that would have a similar level. But I don't think we'll ever go further than that. And probably going forward, a lot of the pieces that I write will be more in line with House of bad memories. There's a lot of jokes in there, but it is more like a kind of dark thriller, dark crime, dark horror, whatever you want to call it, in terms of why I wrote that specific piece, there's a few answers to that. So I mean, during the the composition of it, I was going through the worst time of my life. I've spoken about it on this podcast before. I've spoken about it on other podcasts before. I've spoken about it to all of you, private. Lee, that was the time when I was going through a divorce and a custody battle. It was so dark, there was not a lot of light, and I was simultaneously writing two things. There was a psychosexual thriller called together forever, where I was channeling all of this darkness and all of the negativity and just these really visceral emotions and feelings and putting that onto the page, and though there was a lot of rage and there was a lot of hate in it, and I was also at the back of my mind, just this concept for daddy's boy showed up. And I was talking to my good friend John crinnen, and I told him about the two ideas, and I don't even know why daddy's boy came up. I just, I just wanted to tell him, Look, that there's this one together forever. There's about 60,000 words. We're coming towards the end. And then here's the one page pitch for daddy's boy. And he was like, Holy shit, that's the novel that I want to read. So I essentially wrote a 75,000 word dick joke because John crinnen said he wanted to hear that joke. And I have said, I think when I was talking to rob Olson on the ark party, even though, on the surface it might seem like a lot of dick jokes are packed into that book, which is completely true. It is also it is also a kind of commentary on parenthood. It is a commentary on how far we will go for our family, what the limits are, what we do when we feel that we failed. So for people who know me, they will be able to look beyond the stream of sausages and actually see Bob is holding up. That doesn't matter what he's holding up. Actually listeners who'll just have to guess, it's a reference to something that happened. Oh, fair. Thank you for that. Bob goodness beyond beyond the stream of sausages, there is like a commentary on parenthood, on, you know, perceived failure on what we will do to try and redeem ourselves. So for those who personally know me and the situation it, it is a little bit dark and a little bit heavy, particularly if you've got that background. And I think to bring it back to what I said about life ceremonies and Sayaka Murata. When you've got the comedy, you know you want to play it straight, like you want to have that the characters like they believe what they're doing. They're not doing it in a slapstick way. These are real people with real emotions. So why did I write the book? One? I wrote it because John crinnen wanted to hear the joke, but also I wrote it because I was going through so much darkness, I just wanted to have a semblance of joy. I enjoyed writing dad is boy, so much, you know, I think if you're going to make the reader laugh, you've got to make yourself laugh. I was laughing so much through the writing of that

I recently was proofing the audio book and Josh Curran, who is one of the fantastic narrators, perhaps best known for the other stories, Hawk and Cleaver's the other stories, he's done such a remarkable job. And I was laughing listening to his delivery. And there were moments where I don't, I might be in a complete dickhead here, because I'm, I'm laughing at jokes. I'm the mother fucker who came up with them. And I'm like, oh, that's, that's a fucking good one, right there. It's like you wrote that you've heard that like 1213, times. But genuinely, I know that this book is divisive. I've already seen in the early reviews that it's divisive, but I love it. It's the most fun I've had writing anything. I think in terms of my personal favorite books, it might be house of bad memories, and daddy's boy, I feel that they. Are completely the Michael David Wilson brand of fiction, and that's me being authentic, and that's me being true to myself. And to be quite honest, even though The Girl in the Video is my most popular, maybe I wasn't fully being me, but now I am, and daddy's boy is here. So what you're gonna do about that?

Dan Howarth 20:24
Well, the whole point of writing is, is that ultimately, we write for ourselves, and John crinn clearly in this case, but if you're not enjoying it, there's no point in doing it. And I know we've had this discussion off air and on the podcast in the past. But if you if you're not going to enjoy you know what you're up to, then you may as well just completely not bother. So to hear you talk in such glowing terms about you know your experience writing this book is something that fans of your work should be excited about, really, because it means you know, you're finding your groove. You're finding the vein of what it is that you're writing that's going to keep you, keep you compelled, and keep you doing it, and hopefully keep them, you know, wanting more. Yeah,

Michael David Wilson 21:12
yeah. And you, you spoke about how some might see it as a departure or a left turn, but to just really reiterate the last point I made. It's not It's me embracing me, it's me being honest to myself. That is what you've got with daddy's boy. And I mean, funnily enough, I've just started working on a new project that I'm pitching. So it's set in Japan. It's kind of funny games meets from dust till dawn, with some of the supernatural undertones of the ring. And initially I thought maybe this one will be a little bit more commercial. I think it's definitely darker, but already, only a few chapters in we got some jokes in there. Even if we're gonna have like a bleak Japanese horror, there have to be jokes. I It's me. I'm not I'm not going to self sabotage your or self censor, you know, because what? Because I want a big publishing deal, because I want an agent, because I want it to be made into a film. Yeah, I want all of those things. But what do I want more? I want to fucking enjoy writing the story, and I want to be honest to me, and I want to write the best story that I can write, and that is true to who I am, because if I just think, well, we write the supernatural horror set in Japan that will sell well or will be commercial, what will we have? We'll have something generic. We'll have something soulless. I have to put my soul into it, and I have to believe in it. So going forward, everything from me is going to be quirky. It's gonna be dialog heavy. And if you're surprised by that, you probably haven't been paying attention to what I've been doing anyway for the last few years. This

Jasper Bark 23:16
is an essential part of finding your voice as an author, hitting on all those little things you do best. And as you one of the things that's coming out, what you're saying, is that if you're not enjoying the work, how on earth will you expect the reader to enjoy the work? If you're not laughing at your own jokes, no one else is going to laugh at them. And if you're not scared by what you're writing, you're not going to scare the your readers. But I want to talk about if we can move out into a broader area about the composition of the novel. One of the things I really liked about it is it, um, is it pivots, kind of like, almost like every like, 10,000 words, you start off thinking you're kind of reading like a car Hinds and Chris Brook Myer style, kind of comedy thriller, and then it just takes, like, a weird left turn, and they Okay, so fair enough. This is a comedy, sort of, with some weird, sexual, kind of deep and then you kind of take another turn, and you go, where is this novel going? So it reads like a novel that you pants, that like every, like, almost like you threw the dice every kind of, like, 5000 words of my score this here, but by the time you get to the end, you've tied up so many loose strands, even ones that is a really, that I'd forgotten. And I go, Oh, which gives the sense that maybe you've plotted it. So I'd kind of like to hear about, did you partly pants, partly plot? Did you completely plot? Did you totally pants the whole thing?

Michael David Wilson 24:37
Well, I think you might be surprised what I answered to this, I know that Bob won't because he knows my strategy. I I am definitely more of a planner than a pan set. So I mean, before I even put a word down, I try to have a chapter by chapter plan so we know what. Going in to each bit, but I I've described my style as the hybrid before, because what I'll do is I will plan it out, but then I give myself permission that actually, if a character says we want to go down here, then I will go down there, and then we'll see what the fuck happens. And then we might have to course correct, we might have to go back to the original plan. So I mean, already of this other novel that I'm working on I've got, so I've got the chapter by chapter plan. I got to the end of chapter two, and then a pretty central character decided, actually, we're going to do something chaos. We're gonna really up the stakes. And it's like, oh shit. Well, now that's happened that could throw a few other things off. And I do find that it if I don't plan, or at least because it's been a long time since I haven't planned. But I often found that, like I would maybe have, let's say 20,000 words where I'm really enjoying it, and it's like, okay, well, or now, where the hell am I? I'm not sure where to go at this point, and really to to just feel completely stuck and unmoored. And so then either right after either, I'd abandon it, which I don't recommend people abandoning their stories. I mean, if you have to as a last resort, then okay. But typically I'd be like, well, now I've got to go back to square one and plan it. So then I might as well plan from the start, if that's what I'm going to do anyway. Something that I've noticed people have said about all of my work is that they couldn't plan. They could they couldn't predict, sorry, where it was going to go, and I seem to have, particularly with House of bad memories. And now daddy's boy created this, I think we're there watching as well. Actually created this thing where it seems to start in one genre, and then we pivot to another genre, and then maybe for the third act surprise. We're in another genre, and you know we spoke about, if you want to scare the reader, scare yourself. If you want to make the reader laugh, you got to make yourself laugh. I also enjoy reading and watching books and films where I can't predict where they're going to go, I love it when there's a left turn and then we we just going to go down another path. I mean that there was that uh, 80s movie I might get the title rung, but it's called something like midnight mile, and it starts off as almost a rom com, and then it turns into a zombie apocalypse film. It's like, Where the fuck did that come from? And even for a perhaps more popular example, if you look at kill list, it almost starts off as just this really gritty, kind of just dark, almost a thriller, or just something dark and heavy and unpleasant, but then it's like, oh, and slight spoiler for kill list. Oh, it's The Wicker Man. What the fuck is going on here? So, I mean, what one thing that I I found difficult to begin with, and like, I certainly have to put a lot of thought into it, is like, right, how the hell are we going to end this novel, this story? Because I think I'm pretty good with coming up with an interesting concept and a good opener, but it's like, how am I going to actually get this to some sort of satisfying conclusion, satisfying climax, as might be appropriate for daddy's boy? And I think as well i i heard when Stephen Graham Jones was talking about his approach to writing stories, and he was specifically talking about, when he's got a call for an anthology, what he'll do is they'll write a list of all the ways that he doesn't want to write it, and then kind of what is left might be the answer. It's like, well, right? What actually remains here? But I think everything I do, I try to, I try to have it have a reason. So it's like, you know, they say. Like, well, if you showed a gun in the first act, you've got to fire it in the final act. And it's like, Look, if you mention naked attraction on page one, then there's got to be a payoff by the end. And everything that seems innocuous, there is a purpose. There is something that is going to call back to it. And I guess this also, like, like, everything's tying in together here, because it ties into the idea of, with comedy, you're not just doing it for the laugh. There is a wider purpose. So it all comes together as it were. So, yeah, I, I don't know if I've answered your question there I, I certainly started answering it, but, but then you forgotten what the original question was, Where, where are we now? We

Jasper Bark 30:56
were talking about the composition of your conversation did exactly what the book does just come took a 90 degree turn every like five minutes exactly.

Michael David Wilson 31:06
So this is just being authentic. This is being me. But

Jasper Bark 31:11
I love the fact, as a writer, whether you plan or not, I find most plotters have to find some way to inject spontaneity into their work, or it dies on the page being over planned equally, an awful lot of pants, as I know, have to plot a little bit ahead. Well, they get exactly the problem. You said. They get 20,000 words into a story, and then they're stuck. They've got no idea where it's going to go. They have to stop and plot ahead. You know, guys like Neil Gaiman and Stephen King have had that happen to them. Sorry, I should say, like the probably not the best person to mention, but he's quite a famous pan, sir.

Michael David Wilson 31:48
I mean, it's a good example in terms of pant singers are right and not probably a good example of a human being. There you go. That wasn't the point that you were making, I think, too, in terms of, you know, you're talking about, you see by the end how some elements have, have all, like, kind of tied in and come together, what I'll do, too is, I mean, like I do, and quite a lot of drafts. And so one of the final stages is like, right? How can we maybe even foreshadow things a little bit more? How can we add, like, a little bit of color, some Easter eggs, some nods towards other things that are going on? So sometimes it might be a plot point, but other times it might even be the way that a character words something. So I think people, if they reread my work, that then be like, Okay, I see how he's setting up, or he's foreshadowing, you know, this particular event that that happens later. So I yeah, I'm, I think

Jasper Bark 33:05
you mentioned the Chekhov quote, like, if you produce a gun in the first act, you have to fire it the third I think he's got that ass backwards. Basically, it's that you sometimes you get to the third act and you need a fucking gun, and you realize, shit, I've got to go back to the first act, or pop it in a draw, produce it so then it can be fired. So, and that's exactly what you've been talking about. You often reach the third act and think I need a gun. Yeah,

Michael David Wilson 33:32
yeah. And I think as well, I try to anticipate almost the and in a way, what, what might a reader be criticizing, or what might a reader say? Okay, it's difficult to suspend disbelief here. And so there's one point without without spoiling, because there's no real context of what I'm about to say, but, but there's a gun and a character's like, how many fucking bullets does this thing have? Because it's just like, insane, the amount that's being fired. It's like, what is going on here? Or, yeah, I, I like to almost call attention to it's like, look, this isn't an error. I'm aware of what's happening. I

Bob Pastorella 34:26
think one of the things that, and you mentioned it several times, is that the thing that bridges this together, especially for House of bad memories and daddy's boy, is there's a crime element there. And it's not like it's a heist or anything like that, but you have nefarious people doing nefarious things, and so that That's criminal. And so crime is on a sliding scale, and it's like so you can have. Like, really, really serious crime, and have it be brutal and not funny, and or any you know, totally serious, or you can kind of dial that back a little bit. And so with House of bad memories and daddy's boy, you've got basically, essentially two crime novels, which is, crime is like a kiss and cousin to horror. So it's you're not, you're not that far off the mark from what you've been doing. It's just that these particular stories are the ones that have caught your fancy, and you have a new one that you're working on now that sounds more, you know, supernatural and things like, you know, that set in Japan. And it's a little bit more, okay, you know, the the whole thing is, it's like, are you getting away from horror? No, you're doing what you want to do. I get where you're coming from. I worked for several months on a very bleak novel that had very, it was very humorless. And when I got the edits back for the small hours released in June 24 from ghoulish, I found that my love for something that was actually funny, because this is a horror comedy, and it made me want to write something a little bit light or fair, you know, because the everything in the world right now is just going so cheerily and so happily and so smoothly, and I'm lying through my fucking teeth right now. So I got tired of the bleak, so I had to, I didn't abandon the bleak. I just put the bleak on a back burner. I'm like, no, no, we'll come back to you later. I can't, I can't do it so I get where you're coming from. You know, you you went through something that then a lot of people have had to go through, but it was for you, it was it's, it's a personal thing, just like, if I had some trauma in my life, it would be a personal thing. We only look at it from our perspective. And when you go through something that's traumatic, sometimes you just want to fucking laugh. And that's, that's, you know. So if anybody criticizes you, because, oh, you know Michael, David Wilson, isn't, isn't horror anymore. No, no. Sometimes you just got to flip that coin over and show the other side of it, you know. And I think that's, that's, I don't think you'll get criticized for it. You got it. You got to have many irons out in the fire, you know. Going back to what Jasper was talking about, I can confirm that Michael is a planner, because when we had to write, They're Watching. He started the outline on it, and it was very detailed, more detailed than I like to go into because I'm a Panter. So I had to learn how to construct an outline, and my first couple efforts were not very good. I felt like Michael would write several paragraphs of stuff, and then my contribution would be three lines. He got in the car, he drove away, you know, just really kind of, hey, let's just make it like hallucin everything, like that. It's like, no, no, where are we going? What are we doing? What time is it? Where's the day? And, like, who cares? We're fucking in a car, you know? But it's made me become aware of of where I'm at in the story. So as as a pantser, I do have to have someone like, initial notes, because I don't again, I've been there 20, 25,000 words like, where in the fuck I go now, I need a gun. I need something. I need a dead body to fall through the roof. I need something to shock this fucker back in the life. You know, a plan would have helped.

Michael David Wilson 38:59
Yeah, there's so many points and places that I could jump off from there. I'll start by saying, I don't think you're a bad planner, Bob, so let's get that out the way. And like everybody, has their own individual and unique methods. So you do what works for you, if it works for you, then by default, by definition, then it is a success, then it is a good plan. You know, the most unfortunate thing for you was that your collaborator happened to be me, and I like question, and I scrutinize and I'm very pedantic, and Dan Howarth, who has worked with me, is gonna be like yet Jesus Christ. He is a pedant. So, oh yes, but what, what we did with with their watching? I'm so happy with, I'm so tremendously proud of, I think it's a fantastic novel. And the great thing with a collaboration is, you know, you have to work on something that you would never have done on your own. Without us combining, it wouldn't have turned out how it did. And so it was an absolute success. And if people haven't read it, then they should go out. They should buy it. They should read it. But listen to this episode first, because there's going to be gold. So there you go. But the other points that you made so you mentioned about me kind of pivoting into crime and crime and horror being connected. I mean, I think that I've always gravitated towards crime fiction combined with horror. And I mean, even if you look at The Girl in the Video, there are elements of crime there too. My favorite type of horror to write is certainly more grounded in reality rather than the supernatural. Well, with that being the case, is probably going to skewer towards crime anyway, because you got messed up people doing things and they ain't legal, so it's gonna go into that crime genre, but I have created the situation where what I'm doing, as I say, is not traditional horror, but it's not traditional crime either. It's not a heist, it's not a police procedural. It is characters doing criminal things, but it's not traditional crime fiction, which honestly is my favorite type of crime fiction. I mean, Dan Howarth introduced me a good few years ago now to will Carver. You could argue that he's writing crime but it's not the type of crime fiction that you would kind of think about if somebody said, this is a crime fiction book. The same with John never, and he is writing books where there are characters committing crimes, but it's not really crime fiction. And then to go back to the the new novel that I'm working on initially, I did loosely plan out a more traditional Japanese supernatural horror, and I looked at it and I thought that it's a good story, but it's not an authentically me story for this Time and for this place and for where I am. I actually thought it was the nearest thing I'd planned out to their watching, apart from their watching, which is the nearest thing I've planned out to their watching. It's very like They're Watching, in fact. So in fact, this this supernatural J horror that I originally had could be a good thing to work on with you Bob at some point, because it's actually, you know, it's got that commonality to to their watching. But I don't, well, it's not quite working. So what if I took somebody essence of this idea, but turned it into something that is more me. And so I just started bullet pointing. What? What do I love to write? And so one of the top things was, like, kind of crimes gone wrong, Comedy of Errors. Like, I think, you know, I don't just like writing about criminals. I like writing about incompetent criminals. It's far more exciting to write about crimes gone wrong. The other thing was, well, it has to be dialog heavy. There has to be some humor. And as soon as I just wrote these points down, it's like, how can I turn this so called supernatural horror into something that actually ticks all the boxes for me? I just unlocked it and was like, Yes, now I am in it. Now I am enjoying it. So the message here, and the message that we often give on This Is Horror is you have to embrace your own joy. You have to find joy in the pursuit of writing. Because if you do that, you win every time. And it's so important, and it's such a long game. Anyway, if you're writing primarily to make money, but you're not enjoying what you're doing, then you might as well be doing something where you've got a much higher return rate. Anyway, you might as well become a lawyer or an accountant or a doctor. I mean, you have to go and get a degree and but you know, do yourself. Seven years at medical school and then, and then come back. But writing just for the money is it's a bad idea. We want to make money. This is a business we have, you know, families to feed Jasper. Last time he was on mentioned that his children were knocking on the doors and had been locked, locked in a shed or something, but, but he still has to feed them. He still has to go to the shed periodically. So, yeah, but I think, I think I've lost the point a little bit there. I got excited about Jasper's Jasper's free time pursuits.

Jasper Bark 45:41
They've left the shed. Now I can confirm this. Okay,

Michael David Wilson 45:45
so that's fantastic.

Dan Howarth 45:50
Speaking of incompetent criminals, jester, yeah, you've let them out. Now, one thing I was going to ask Michael is so you've talked about how the next book is going to be like a J horror mash up set in Japan. Why is this book set in the UK when you haven't lived there for a very, very long time?

Michael David Wilson 46:12
Because I feel so comfortable writing about the UK, and specifically Kidderminster in that very specific area of the Midlands. I know it intimately. I spent the majority of my life living there, and I think this kind of Midlands gray wasteland is the perfect location for incompetence and incompetent criminals. I mean, you only need to go on to the kid, administer, shut a website and read some of the headlines to see how it is, you know, rife with criminal mishaps, both in reality and on the page. It is a location that I am very familiar with. You know, I think it's almost a love hate relationship. It's like there's some affection towards Kidderminster and some affection towards also hating and taking the piss out of Kidderminster. I could imagine going forward, that there will be kind of a combination of Japan set horror and books, and also Kidderminster set horror and books. These are the two locations that I feel that I know best, and also, I mean, if you just look at that specific story, it is a very British story. Now, I'm not saying that it's like going to be on BBC One. It's not, it's not kind of what you think of, but it couldn't really be set anywhere else, lo, the location and the type of people. It's a British story. It's a kid in minster story, even though we also go to to monar on Sea, which is a nod to their watching, because They're Watching, is set in monar on sea. But to be even more obscure, we only mentioned that it's called Mona in the screenplay that has yet to be produced. So this is some next level kind of self, self wanking, self referencing. But it is, yeah, it is in the same place as house of bad memories and the same place as They're Watching.

Jasper Bark 48:49
Can I talk to you about the voice of the novel? Because, because of all the stuff that I've read of yours, this one has the most distinctive voice, like authorial voice. So one, can I ask, did you know right from the word go, it was going to be in the first person, how easy and how quick Did you find the author of voices you were writing? And lastly, how close to your own voice as Michael, David Wilson, do you think it is? How close is Wentworth to you?

Michael David Wilson 49:17
So I mean, I knew pretty much from the start that it was going to be in the first person. And I actually find first person past tense to be the easiest mode for me to write in. It just comes very naturally to me. I mean that the two, projects that I'm working on at the moment. I do have a collaborative novel with John crinnen, who was mentioned previously. This is like a wild, magical Yakuza set in a sleep cafe in Japan. That's kind of if Ryu and Haruki Murakami. I wrote a book together that was directed by Takashi Miike and Quentin Tarantino. So that one, that one at the moment, is in the first person present, which is not what I gravitate towards normally, but, but the voice just kind of emerged to me for the for the first page, and it's like, well, that's what we're going with. But if I look at then the other novel that I mentioned that I'm working on that is back to first person past as as was the case with this one with with Wentworth, and the first page in that first chapter is always so important to me to like get right and to nail and to almost be seductive and to reel the reader in. So I like to kind of have it conversational, and I like to have it light, but at the same time, have some some humor to it so often that the concept will come first for the first page, and then I'll just like mess around with different modes of delivery. I mean, the the latest one. Yeah, I had to start the first page about five times until I realized this is the hook. Because, I mean, you know, for a reader or an editor or whoever, if you don't, if you don't get that first line or that first paragraph right, you might not have them for anything else. So it did come incredibly easy for me in terms of how so, how close Wentworth voice is to me, and then how close Wentworth is to me. I mean, they're two different, different answers there in terms of the voice, I feel that each protagonist's voice is almost like a variation on my own voice. But there have been people who have read my work and they listen to the podcast and they're like, I couldn't help but hear it in your voice while I was reading it. So I, I do think that there, yeah, there's quite a lot in terms of the cadence and the way that I will phrase things that is similar to my own voice. In terms of how similar Wentworth is to me. I mean, I think with each of my characters, that there are parts of me, there are even sometimes autobiographical details of me that will go in. So it's almost like this is an exaggeration of some sides of me, and some things will be dialed up in one way. Some things will be dialed up in in other ways. There are things that both Wentworth and Norman, the other protagonist, do and feel that are true to how I feel. But I think, like Graham Joyce said when we were when we had the live event with him at Warwick, you know about what, 12 years or so ago, now that there are bits of his fiction that really happened, there are things that he made up. And it might surprise you to find out that the things that you think, Oh, well, that definitely happened. You know that that was the more mundane bit that was made up. And then the bits that you think are made up, they really happened. As I say this though I realized that daddy's boy is the one book where perhaps that doesn't apply as much as other things, there are definitely bits that I made up that did not actually happen, but you can guess which bits those are for yourself. I will never admit to what did or didn't happen. That is on the page. We've gone silent. Is it this is like Jasper's tactic to be like, No. If I go quiet, you have to admit it's like, Okay, I did get that meaty hog out fine.

Jasper Bark 54:29
And did you ever drop a brick in a moment of like, it connected?

Michael David Wilson 54:34
Did I ever drop a brick to mark my territory? I think people have to let people know that this is their house that they're in at the moment, and you got to do what you got to do. And I hope that you know because we're we're we're laying, we're dropping these bricks of of information about the the text, without. Giving any context that it will intrigue and it will pique people's interests. It's like, I don't know entirely what they're talking about and what's going on, but I want to read daddy's boy, and you can may 6 paperback, ebook and audio book, fantastically narrated by Josh Curran. Was there another part of your question, Jasper, I did.

Jasper Bark 55:25
No, I was, I thought you asked the question perfectly, so I was kind of going to hand off to one of my co hosts. But then, then it looks there, being there, floundering.

Dan Howarth 55:34
We were waiting for your follow up. Jasper, that was all we were giving you, the space, the room to breathe, mate, don't you worry,

Jasper Bark 55:41
which was very, very kind of you, and tremendously thoughtful.

Dan Howarth 55:45
So, in terms of, so Michael, in terms of the writers that you're looking to at the moment, we've talked about kind of, you know, you've touched on, like Chuck a little bit, you know, John Niven will Carver, in terms of comedy influences, rather than, you know, solely kind of authors that you've been inspired by. Where would you pitch, kind of your your sense of humor, in terms of, you know, TV shows or stand up comedians, podcasts, whatever it may be, which you know, whatever form you're imbibing your comedy in these days. So

Michael David Wilson 56:24
I mean in terms of trying to pitch, what is my humor most like, or what is my fiction most like? I mean, yes,

Dan Howarth 56:35
say what's feeding into into your work at the moment. Then in terms of what's what shaped your sense of humor? What speaks to you that's currently out there? Yeah, I,

Michael David Wilson 56:46
I think in terms of feeding my sense of humor, that's tremendously difficult to to answer that. But you know, with that specific wording, oh, here we go. It's the fucking pedant again, I warned everyone. But in terms, I

Dan Howarth 57:02
think you'll find I warned people, didn't I telling them that you were the absolute worst. But yeah, well,

Michael David Wilson 57:09
I like to take credit for things that you do. Then we're

Jasper Bark 57:15
talking about plotters and pants. Is the kind of final part of that triumvirate, kind of like the pedant Are you? Do you ever get off the starting blocks if you are a pedant

Dan Howarth 57:29
and probably can't, probably can't agree on the formatting before you even start typing, I'd imagine

Jasper Bark 57:35
I ask a question one, one of the huge ongoing gags throughout the whole thing is, is the program, I thought it was just a UK only kind of phenomenon, naked attraction. So can I mean, obviously, you live in Japan, Bob, you're on the other side of the Atlantic to us. Like, is naked attraction like just a British phenomenon, or is it like a worldwide kind of like plague? Do

Michael David Wilson 57:59
you want me, or do you want Bob? To answer that, because I've done some research into this, but I'd be curious to hit here Bob's response, and begin with,

Bob Pastorella 58:08
I'll give you my response, and then Michael will give you the real answer. Um, is naked attraction, just like porn? No, it isn't.

Michael David Wilson 58:15
It is a hierarchy.

Bob Pastorella 58:20
Then if you're talking about a specific thing, then I'm not familiar with naked attraction specifically, but in a general sense, then yes, I am a fan of naked attractions

Michael David Wilson 58:35
for sake. Well, moving on. Is a popular TV show in the UK, which you will find that there is a point in the book where I organically get a character to explain exactly the format of naked attraction for those who are not familiar. But it has also been licensed to a number of other countries, so there are some international versions of it. It the UK version has also been broadcast briefly in America, and then there were so many complaints about the nudity that it got removed very quickly. So it is predominantly, or at least primarily, a British phenomena. But I I felt that, you know, the concept of naked attraction is pretty easy to explain, and I do explain that in the book, I mean, you've essentially got a clothed person looking for a potential partner. There are six potential partners. They are all naked, and little by little, parts of their body is. Revealed, and they are also asked questions, as the person trying to find the partner eliminates people based on the attractiveness of their naked parts and also the quality of answer to their questions, though, I suspect that it is probably more the former than the latter that most of the people competing on naked attraction are primarily judging their partner on. But I think even if you don't know naked attraction, I mean, even the name of the show conjures up an image. I think it's quite humorous, and I think that people reading the book get it fairly quickly. There's nobody who's like reviewed or a beta reader who said, I'm sorry, but you didn't sufficiently explain naked attraction, and it took me out of the story. So there's your naked attraction answer in terms of going back to Dan Howarth original question. So, I mean, I've had people compare my work to Guy Ritchie and Quentin Tarantino before, which, I think, is the highest compliment that somebody could really give, I think, in terms of in terms of influence, or in terms of just something that I thought, Wow, that really captures the spirit as to what I want to do When I saw the television version on Netflix of guy Rich is the gentleman. I thought, oh my god, that is what I want to do with my writing. That is the nearest anything has come to a Michael David Wilson book in television or movie form. So that is the absolute pinnacle. If I talk about what kind of feeds in or who were the comedians, or what are the shows that I enjoy, I love inside number nine, that that's, yeah, that's probably my favorite television show, Black Mirror is, is very, very good too. I think inside number nine is near my vision in terms of what I would like to see in the world. But Black Mirror is is absolutely brilliant too. And I also, I recently saw an episode from the previous season, and it was called something like demon 79 and essentially, somebody accidentally summons a demon, but the demon looks like the lead singer of Boney M because they've been watching a lot of Boney M videos, and I don't Oh, my God, this is exactly the kind of weird, dark fiction and dark comedy that I like to do, because they're playing everything straight but the demon throughout the entire 90 minute episode looks like the lead singer from Boney M and there is also their first time on the job. But you know that they're not they're playing it straight. So that was absolutely wonderful. So I think those are the things that are nearest to what I like to do. And then in terms of, like, you know, other comedies, like, I mean, Dan, Dan knows that I love peep show. So peep show is the greatest. Yeah, an incredible comedy. I think Curb Your Enthusiasm is almost as near to an American version of peep show as we've had. Is much better than when did you ever see when they released one pilot episode of an American version of peep show? And it's one of the worst things to have ever been done.

Dan Howarth 1:04:21
Edit this out. Michael, we don't speak of that abomination.

Michael David Wilson 1:04:27
And I love Ricky. Jeff is the office. I think that's fantastic. The UK version of the office. I am always interested in whatever television series Ricky Gervais puts out. I mean, he, you know, he, there's varying degrees of quality, but there's always something of interest and something that I enjoy about just his mode of, kind of. Uh, tackling, I suppose, social issues and and putting out TV shows. This is not so much about a direct influence, but this is just, you know, you're asking me about what comedy I enjoy and, and, like, it's almost so obvious that it's almost not worth answering like, Yeah, I like George Carlin and Jim Jeffries, fucking Jim Jeffries, what a legend. And Bill Higgs, anybody who's like doing edgy stand up. I'm probably a fan of

Dan Howarth 1:05:38
because one, one of the ones that you haven't mentioned that I sprung to mind with me, with Norman, with the kind of deep obsession of his character, would have been league a gentleman, to be honest. I could imagine him very much living not in Kidderminster, but in Royston Daisy. Yeah, definitely,

Michael David Wilson 1:05:57
yeah. I think sometimes, like I lazily or I accidentally, when I mention inside number nine, almost like put it with League of gentlemen. I mean, I know that they're distinct modes, you know, and even psycho Ville as well, but, but what I thought you were going to say, Dan, and what we haven't mentioned is, obviously, you know, there's some commonalities between Norman and Frank Gallagher from shameless, and that's something that has come up quite a lot. And I will admit that, like I'd watched quite a lot of shameless around that time, too. So I think that was actually the most direct influence I've had, just in terms of, like, this kind of waster, right? I think Brian Asman, in his blurb, described daddy's boy as a slice of slack and Noir. And I thought, yeah, that is the genre. That is what I'm doing. Is it is a comedy of errors. It's a comedy of utter incompetence. And it is slack and Noir. It is these absolute wasters getting in more trouble from just stupid ideas stupid situations that they could easily avoid, and you know that they they, they keep doubling down because of because of their loyalty, or because of their misguided idea that this, this might work out. Okay,

Jasper Bark 1:07:38
Michael, can we segue from talking about TV shows, and you mentioned previously, like you would love to see some of your work as a film. If you had your ideal cast, if you were casting Wentworth and Norman and Amanda and Comey Ian and Colin. Could you? Could you give us, like a few, like dream actors you'd love to see in those roles.

Michael David Wilson 1:08:03
Oh, my goodness it, you know it. It depends too. Like, you know, would would this be a British version? Would this be like? Because often, like, it turns into an American version when you get something made into

Dan Howarth 1:08:24
ignore that they're wrecking enough stuff in the world.

Michael David Wilson 1:08:29
Goodness, like, I can't believe that this is, this isn't something I've thought a lot about, but let me think. I'm trying to think who they would play, but I definitely want Michael smiley and Steve Oram involved in in this in some way. But I just, I just have to decide, like, if, if Michael Caine could grow his hair out a bit and play tricky Ricky, I think that would be wonderful. God, who, who would you get? I mean, can can Emma Stone do a British accent? Because we do describe, Wes good sister as as a coach, Emma Stone. So, I mean, the the idea is there already on the page, oh, god, oh god, maybe Steve Coogan could play Norman. Oh yeah. He, he's, like, got pretty good, particularly in his later years of of playing these kind of older waster characters. I think, I think he could do, do some justice. His

Jasper Bark 1:09:46
first character, way back at the beginning the nights, when he first hit the scene as well, was called Paul somebody or other who's

Dan Howarth 1:09:53
like, cough. And he did Pauline calf as well as the sister.

Jasper Bark 1:09:57
So they're like, that's like, some. Altman a shit to brick Rick, and he's like in his youth, so, you know, Steve Cook would be great choice, yeah,

Dan Howarth 1:10:06
with accents as well as Nick. So, yeah, I'm sure, I'm sure he could manage it. Maybe we should tweet him or something, see if he's on board. Michael, yeah,

Michael David Wilson 1:10:14
yeah. So then, then Steve a ram. He probably has to be one of the knots brothers. So he's either pat or Gary. Let's give him Pat, because Pat is that the kind of bigger role there, like when, yeah, the younger characters went with coming in and Carly. And I'm like, I'm trying to think who were the What about

Jasper Bark 1:10:39
people do nothing. Have you seen that I've got the name wrong. People don't do anything. Do nothing. See mockumentary about a rap group who have like a pirate radio station in a flat in the middle of Wandsworth. Is

Dan Howarth 1:11:00
it not? Is it not? Some people just do nothing. Is that? That's what it's called?

Jasper Bark 1:11:04
Is it, yeah, one of those would be great. In fact, actually went with as well. I'm quite fascinated again by you planned all this out in advance, did you know how many different like genres and sub genres you were actually going to cover, or as you were plotting it, did it begin to surprise you? And what was the biggest URL plotting?

Michael David Wilson 1:11:35
I think that. I think that during so, whenever I start something, I, of course, I have, I have an idea as to what, where is it gonna begin and where, where I ultimately want it to end up, but anything in between is fair game, and even where it will end up is normally quite loose, because, as I said before, like nailing that ending can be the most difficult part, but I tend to find it's good to have an idea as to where you want to go, even if you ultimately decide to go somewhere else, because otherwise, like, you're kind of just getting in the car and you you know, where are you going, although Norman does say that South people did it in the 80s, they just got in the car and started driving. So I think they would like, what? What surprised me. So there, there is, there is a moment that I added in quite late on, because of some John crinn and feedback, I'm trying to think, How can I say this? So you know what I'm talking about, but without spoiling anything, so let's say that there is a there is a contest near the end that is hinted, that is hinted at, and in one of the original drafts, it's just hinted at. And John was like, I think you need to make them actually do this. Okay, so, and, you know, he, he was, like, I really thought you were going to and like, he's like, it's just perfect. Everything has been culminating towards these gentlemen doing this and and already at that point. So I'd sent it out to a number of beta readers. I already saw that it is dividing people. And, you know, you don't write daddy's boy and think, oh, this will be a middle of the road book with with no real reaction. So I knew there were going to be people that would love it and that would hate it. And the main reason for hating it would would just be that, like all of these dick jokes have got a little bit overbearing, and it's like, oh my God, you're right, John, that if I put this in, it is perfect. But at the same time, it's like, if there was anyone who was nearly hating it but they were on the edge, then they would absolutely hate it, if I add this in, but I have to fucking do it, and I did. So yeah, that's probably the bit that surprised me the most. You know that there weren't, there weren't that many, like major surprises like that. There are little surprises or little ideas that just happened throughout the composition, but I think that that contest is the big one there. There are things that kind of happen in the moment, like, you know, Wouldn't it be funny if Colin's art form was like an amateur hip hop artist via Tiktok that just kind of came organically? I don't think that was in the plan, but it added some character. So I think too. I mean, if I think about House of bad memories and what surprised me there, like again, it's things that happen at the end. It's normally little details that culminate in the finale, or the third act twist, or the final sub genre flip and kind of a little bit related to what we've been saying, I find it tremendously hard to pitch my books because they often change sub sub genre. It is like if I write a back cover blurb, or if I'm pitching to a publisher or an agent to do it properly. I'm almost giving a bit of the game away, and it doesn't help too that my approach to watching films and reading books is to just go in cold. I don't want to know anything. It's like tell me the title of the film or the book and possibly one of the sub genres, and that's it. That's all I want to know. So it, it is difficult, and may, I don't know if you find this yourself, Jasper, when you have quite a lot of twists, because you you want to entice people in, but you don't want to give your tricks away. Yeah,

Jasper Bark 1:16:40
I write very different pitches for agents and editors than I write for general readers. But can I put you on the spot here now, as we're kind of we're getting close to the end, and we want people to go away from this podcast to read daddy's boy. So can you give us that pitch that you find so difficult, without giving away the twists and why should we read it? You're stuck in an elevator with Steven Spielberg. Go,

Michael David Wilson 1:17:12
oh, my goodness. Well, I don't know if Steven Spielberg is the person to pitch it to Quentin

Jasper Bark 1:17:20
Tarantino and Takashi, is you punch it Miike? Is that how you pronounce it?

Michael David Wilson 1:17:25
Miike? Yeah, yeah. I I mean that. The thing is that, like normally, normally, at this point i i read the kind of back cover blurb, but you added the caveat to not give anything away. And, you know, I think that actually that does give it away a little bit. So probably all I would do is, I would just say that the final line, which is, daddy's boy is shameless meets guy Rich is the gentleman with the incompetence of the hangover that that's fucking it. That's all you need to know. Then

Jasper Bark 1:18:03
you can all get your dicks out and compare them. Yeah,

Michael David Wilson 1:18:07
but we won't do that, because YouTube will ban the video, unfortunately, because they're not progressive enough to allow four men to get their cocks out on screen to end a podcast. Well, stop, that's what we used to try to do, to kind of like, do the like, T i h, unplanned magic. I mean, probably everyone listening is like, that was not magic. But this happens when I'm writing fiction too. Just like I don't know what I'm going to say, I don't know what I'm going to write, but then once you write it, you commit to it, you double down, you pretend that that DELETE key does not exist. And that is why Andy Peters is in the book. And if that doesn't include you to buy it, then I don't know what will

Jasper Bark 1:19:01
along with Richardson,

Michael David Wilson 1:19:04
Richardson Everly, who is dedicated to Anna Richardson, Jeremy Corbyn and John Green and power trio. Fabulous

Jasper Bark 1:19:12
use of the of the name Jeremy Corbyn. I won't give anything else away, but look after that. You will never look at the former labor leader ever again.

Dan Howarth 1:19:24
The thing I'm most excited about your next book for Michael is, which depths of British Z list celebrities are you going to Plum next? Jeremy Corbyn aside, because we all know he's a legend, but yeah, you've, you've really dug up some ghosts from the past, so I can't wait. You know, is there going to be some ITV weather man from the 80s? You know? Is there going to be a football pundit from 1962 who knows? Who knows where you're going next?

Michael David Wilson 1:19:53
Well, I mean, yeah, who knows? Not me. Because that is part of the, you know, the not. Planned, but I didn't write John fashion. You must turn up in chapter 22 this is a good part for dead line them. So yeah, I

Dan Howarth 1:20:13
meticulous. I wouldn't have ruled it out. Yeah,

Michael David Wilson 1:20:18
yeah. The the only kind of planned people were the the staff of the staff, the contestants on naked attraction. And originally, I was going to have, like a kind of in the the introduction, I was going to have a quote from a contestant called Ryan from naked attraction who said, Oh, I'll make you so wet you'll drip like a faulty boiler. But then I decided, oh, just in case fucking Ryan reads this and tries to sue me, we're gonna get rid of that. I don't know what the legal stance is on just quoting a naked attraction contestant verbatim, but if Anna Richardson or Jeremy Corbyn or des line them try to sue me, then they are known enough that I can take that here for the publicity. But Ryan from naked attraction. It's a great line about the Fauci boiler, but I'm not prepared to get sued over it.

Dan Howarth 1:21:28
I imagine his probation officer would not help him to sue you, to be honest, based on that quote, certainly not one I've ever seen, but I feel like I will be unable to forget it. Now I've heard it. You want

Jasper Bark 1:21:41
to put that on the cover? That's the cover poker. This will make you drip like a Fauci boiler. Yeah? I'd buy it for that reason alone.

Michael David Wilson 1:21:50
Yeah. See, see, now that I've said it aloud and got that reaction, it's like, oh God, maybe I just need to re edit the files. And it's like, right, fuck it, Ryan, try and sue me, if you want. I'm in Japan, and I know because of my legal battles, how difficult it will be for you to actually sue me anyway. So fucking try, big man. Dan, like, I'm not gonna say anything. Like that. This has descended into 2013 level. This is our podcast, and Dan

Bob Pastorella 1:22:28
actually thinking we should end the episode right there. Just sue me. Big man,

Michael David Wilson 1:22:35
yeah, freeze frame of me.

Dan Howarth 1:22:43
Big Man shouting legal challenges down the camera safely aboard like the coward he is

Bob Pastorella 1:22:51
Dan's Voice going, thank you for joining us.

Dan Howarth 1:22:57
This has been the last episode of Mr.

The other way to go down in flames and lawsuits

Jasper Bark 1:23:14
down in drips.

Michael David Wilson 1:23:18
Yeah. So what John Costello would have wanted,

He's not dead, by the way. For anyone

Jasper Bark 1:23:37
listening,

Michael David Wilson 1:23:39
if anyone were to go that way, it would be John. Think it's probably time that we wrap up. But I'm I'm not meant to wrap up my own show. So Michael, thank you for for joining.

Jasper Bark 1:23:53
Thank you so much for joining us. And just to reiterate, daddy's boy is out on May 6. So if you're watching this late, go and buy it right now. If you're not watching this late, go and place a pre order straight away. My co host Bob Pastorella and Dan Howarth, I've been Jasper Bach and to get out in my day release. All

Michael David Wilson 1:24:18
right, I've been Michael David Wilson, I'm always Michael. David Wilson, we'll see you in the next episode. Thank you for listening to This Is Horror Podcast. If you enjoy the show and want to support us, then please consider becoming a patron of patreon.com. Forward slash, This Is Horror. You'll get early bird access to each and every episode, and you can submit questions to the interviewee. You'll also automatically become a member of the This Is Horror discord, and every year there are bonus episodes for patrons only. Such as story unboxed, the horror podcast on the craft of writing in which Bob and I and sometimes a special guest will dissect a short story or film and let you know writing lessons and takeaways to improve your own writing. Another great way to support us is to leave us a review on the Apple podcast app or website. And if you want to watch the video version of the This Is Horror Podcast, join us on YouTube. Youtube.com, forward slash at This Is Horror Podcast. You can subscribe there and get notified every time there is a new video. And however you support us, I thank you in advance. Okay, before I wrap up, a quick advert break,

RJ Bayley 1:25:49
it was as if the video had unzipped my skin, sunk inside my tapered flesh, and become one with me.

Bob Pastorella 1:25:58
From the creator of This Is Horror comes a new nightmare for the digital age. The Girl in the Video by Michael David Wilson, after a teacher receives a weirdly arousing video, his life descends into paranoia and obsession. More videos follow, each containing information no stranger could possibly know, but who's sending them and what do they want? The answers may destroy everything and everyone he loves. The Girl in the Video as the ring meets fatal attraction for the iPhone generation, available now in paperback, ebook and audio, a brutal attack during a peaceful drive to the Irish countryside sets the stage for a grotesque tale of body horror, medical abuse and occult conspiracy theory. Puppets banquet by Valkyrie, la crew, Clay McCloud Chapman calls it a blissful injury upon the reader's psyche. Fans of Silent Hill hell racer and Cronenberg's the brood will be consumed by its exquisite nightmares puppets banquet out May 14. Visit tenepresspress.com for more information.

Michael David Wilson 1:26:57
So before I go, a quick reminder that the first week of a book's launch is so important. So please do buy daddy's boy. It's available worldwide. On Amazon. It's available from this is horror.co.uk You can buy it in paperback, ebook and audio, and after you've read it. I would love it if you could leave a review on Goodreads and Amazon. It really helps in terms of the algorithms and just letting people know what you made at a book. And then if it's a good fit for them, don't be afraid to leave your honest opinion. Any amount of stars, be it five stars. Be it one star. Be it something in between. I want your honest opinion. I want your authentic feedback. And whatever you think of it, you can still listen to the show. We can still be friends. It doesn't matter if you didn't like it. That just means it's not for you. That's what I'm always preaching on This Is Horror. So of course, I hope you do like it. I hope you'll take a chance on it. It's a dark comedy. It's a little bit different from anything else I've done, but God damn, I had so much fun writing it. So until the next episode for another special dad is boy episode in which we'll be talking to Dan just later about Absurdism and writing absurd fiction. Take care of yourselves. Be good to one another. Read horror. Keep on writing and have a great, great Day.