TIH 560: Eric LaRocca on This Skin Was Once Mine and Other Disturbances

00:00.40
Michael David Wilson
So Let's talk about these stories in the collection. So of course it begins with the titular story. The skin was once mine. And I know that you are a big fan and indeed now a friend of The Kona here. So when I saw this skin I couldn't help but recollect skin by Kathe Koja. So I wondered what was there a nod there.

00:37.11
Eric LaRocca
Oh yeah, absolutely I'm always like riffing on Kathe Koja Poppy Z Brite or Clive Barker somehow um Kathy has it's crazy because I read Kathe Koja when I was like. And undergrad I was like 1819 in college and I remember reading skin for the first time and I was just completely blown away I was like wow you can actually write about this like you can put these ideas onto paper and. People will like Bart buy this book like to me it was so fantastical that someone had you know developed this brand of horror this unique brand of like erotic ah just transgressive horror fiction. And I I left reading skin just completely bewitched and like completely transformed and it's been absolutely insane because ah the past few years I've gotten to become pretty good friends with Kathy and she approached me. Maybe a couple months ago about writing an introduction for her rerelease of skin which is coming out through Meerkat Press I think in 2025 and of course I was so so honored and I immediately you know.

02:07.39
Eric LaRocca
Once once she sent me the dm I like threw up a little because I was like oh my god Kathy Kojo wants me to write like an introduction for skin which is like 1 of her most iconic books next to the cipher of course. Um, but that book like holds. So.

02:24.74
Eric LaRocca
It's just so near and dear to my heart and for her to ask me to write the the intro was just um, so just so incredibly sweet of her and and so kind and I've I've found that you know meeting these icons that I've idolized for years. Um, they are as generous and as giving and as kind as I had imagined and I had hoped that they would be and for Kathy that's very very true. She's just so down to earth so generous with her time. Um. She's blurbed me a couple times and um has just been such a a really good person really good like role model and you know I don't want to assign her that role because I feel like assigning someone the role of role model puts like a lot of pressure on them and. We were talking earlier about like the weight of responsibility. But you know when I think of who I want to be in like ten or fifteen years like I hope I have the longevity of someone like Kathy Koja or um. Poppy z bright Billy Martin ah you know people who have shaped transgressive horror fiction but also have been like really positive forces in horror and are just nice and people say.

03:58.82
Eric LaRocca
Really sweet, kind things about them like that's that's what I want my legacy to be.

04:06.37
Michael David Wilson
Yeah, and I mean I I think as well like I mean you spoke about not wanting to put the weight of responsibility on her but you must have felt the weight of responsibility on you in writing that. Introduction and I mean how how did you even approach that I mean you know to? what did you do? What was the Mindset. What were the rules that you put in place in terms of how you wanted to present that to people.

04:41.69
Eric LaRocca
It took me a few drafts because everything I was coming up with I thought I just thought I wasn't doing the book justice and I wasn't doing Kathy Justice and it's an incredible amount of responsibility to be the 1 leading readers into that book skin. Ah for people who are first timers or people who have read it a couple times and know it pretty intimately I think I've only read it like a couple of times. I haven't I'm not like super super like you know, familiar familiar with it. But I I did reread it pretty recently Um, and I found myself really. Struggling at first to put into words like how I felt about the book how how much it resonated with me when I first read it how you know it's kind of lasted throughout the years since I first read it in undergrad college. Um. And once I kind of let go of that responsibility that like weight that I was feeling on my shoulders and I was just like you know what? what would I write if I was just writing like a diary entry of you know my thoughts on this book and something that like no one would ever read.

06:08.33
Eric LaRocca
Something that would just be for my eyes and like don't even think that Kathy's going to read it I really tried to like separate myself from the thought of people judging the intro and looking at it and like critiquing it analyzing it and I really just I mean it's so cliche but like I just. Strived to write from the heart and really tried to write from the the like the slightly wounded 20 year old queer kid that desperately needed to see queer rap. Messy complicated queer rep in horror fiction that I was I was not seeing it and to see it in Kathy's work was just like everything I needed um and and that's really how I how I wrote wrote the intro and. It's since been passed on to the publisher and um I'm excited for people to experience that book again because it is such a landmark in horror fiction and just transgressive literature and in general I feel like Kathy I feel like. Kathy like just doesn't get the the the like the the adulation and the the respect that I feel like she deserves honestly like I I um I see her mentioned from time to time but I feel like a lot of our community like doesn't we have like very short.

07:41.49
Eric LaRocca
Term memories when it comes to like people's contributions to the genre and I mean Kathy's like a legend and I really wish I would just see more um like risks I feel. She's respected I just maybe I just am I'm I'm yearning for for too much. Maybe that's the problem I just I really want to see her like venerated and and like adored and worshipped the way that like I worship and adore her. You know what? I mean.

08:14.67
Michael David Wilson
And yeah I Often wonder you know what? why that is that there's so many people that are not exactly left behind but but something nearing.

08:30.44
Eric LaRocca
And.

08:31.31
Michael David Wilson
That you know people that again not quite forgotten but it's in that ballpark and they just don't seem to be as known as one would really hope and as they deserve and i. I mean I I just wonder if it's because there are so many fantastic writers that it is impossible for 1 to kind of read and to keep up reading all of the great writers I wonder if it's something. Like that I wonder if it's to do you know, kind of more cynically with marketing and taste and I don't know but that there's a lot of people for for various reasons that are not as known.

09:11.57
Eric LaRocca
Yeah.

09:21.18
Michael David Wilson
As I feel they should be or is not as celebrated as they should be I mean even Jack catch him who I mentioned a lot I mean for me, he's was one of the best writers to ever do it and of course that you know he he is.

09:28.26
Eric LaRocca
And.

09:40.24
Michael David Wilson
Respected and and known but much like kaffy co you not on the level even Clive Barker you know, um we you mentioned Stephen King and and Neil Gayman and I think those 2

09:47.61
Eric LaRocca
Yeah.

09:58.98
Michael David Wilson
Ah, known wider than genre but Clive Barker I mean people who are fans don't even realize they're fans you know hell razr is bigger than Clive Barker

10:07.68
Eric LaRocca
Yeah I totally totally agree and I think this is I think it's like a bunch of different problems all coming together at once I I don't know if it's any 1 single particular thing that you could like attribute this to I think it definitely is. Like marketability I think it's like accessibility of a writer and maybe they're maybe even their personality and you know the way they write the way they they craft their the way they craft their prose. Um, and I think it also has to do with the fact that there are so many authors like competing for. Attention and ah just writing phenomenal works. It's hard to keep up. Um there's also another author that I I was thinking of recently and I was like why why isn't he more like he's respected. He's he's very well lauded. But you know it's just it seems like the same sort of authors get like the always the airtime and it's like these other authors don't get the same amount of airtime and the author I'm thinking of is um Thomas Tessier or tessier.

11:23.63
Michael David Wilson
Yeah I was thinking about him the other day. Yeah, he he's almost been forgotten like yeah.

11:33.28
Eric LaRocca
Totally his book finishing touches I read that in ah undergrad my professor like I was obviously very into like erotic extreme horror as an undergrad student and my professor who was also like a really big horror. Junkie um, passed me a copy of finishing touches and was like here. Keep it because I feel like you'll get more use out of it than I will and I read it cover to cover like one day I was completely blown away. Phenomenal phenomenal book. Um, but I don't see him mentioned much. Anymore and I and that like concerns me sometimes like that short. Ah that short memory that like people seem to have you know when it comes to like horror fiction and um, another 1 ne's Steve Rasnick Tem he's another one of my favorites I love his fiction but I don't see him mentioned like all the time the way I want him to be mentioned. You know what? I mean um and I hope I'm not like I hope I'm not insulting these people by saying like.

12:27.81
Michael David Wilson
Oh yeah.

12:46.12
Eric LaRocca
I Don't see you mentioned but I'm only saying this because I really want to see these authors mentioned more in like just casual conversation at like conventions or ah on Podcasts. Like I feel like people don't reference these people a lot anymore.

00:00.24
Michael David Wilson
Yeah I sometimes feel as well as a podcaster that I've got a responsibility in some way to keep these names alive. And to make sure that people are having these conversations about them that they're on people's radar and I mean a few weeks ago I was saying that this year I'm going to try to make sure that we're having conversations. More with with people not just because they've released a book or because there's something coming out but maybe there was a book that was written in 2002 that I want to talk about or something from the 80 s and I mean Thomas Tessier is someone I've been thinking about a lot because I just I feel like many people don't know you know who who he is beyond the night walker and. Even those who who know about the night walker is is quite a small audience compared to the the audience that he should have so I think at some point we're going to have to do a Thomas Tessier special and I mean it if possible. Maybe even get him.

01:25.35
Eric LaRocca
You absolutely should? yeah.

01:25.44
Michael David Wilson
On the podcast I Yeah I mean he he literally follows This is horror on X So hopefully we could get. We could get him on. But yeah I mean I want to.

01:32.70
Eric LaRocca
Oh amazing.

01:42.76
Michael David Wilson
Kind of keep these conversations going. But do you think about these things as ah as a writer yourself as someone in an increasing position of prominence. Do you see it as a responsibility as something you want to do to get those names out there.

02:00.96
Eric LaRocca
Absolutely I mean I I think it's great to post about like your own work and your you know promote yourself and and get your work out there to readers. But I think like a lot of authors have ah like a duty to.

02:17.53
Eric LaRocca
You know, recall the names that came before us and pay honor to them. Um I I try to post about new books that I'm reading or books that I've read or um, you know books. Books that came out like in the eighty s ninety s like um, books don't have expiration dates which is what's you know, amazing about books is you know you can literally discover something that's new to you. That's been out for decades um like any sort of you know. Entertainment I suppose Um, but I definitely feel up feel a pressure to um to share my knowledge of horror fiction and and horror film. Um.

03:09.82
Eric LaRocca
I think the problem is it's a great problem to have. There's just so much being created now that it's it's hard to keep up and there's so much excellent horror fiction being produced I mean we really are in like an amazing horror boom right now. So perhaps that's why we're seeing. Like a shorter memory when it comes to like addressing people who have come before. Um but you know there are ebbs and flows and I think ah you know I I think it I think people like I think people like ah. Thomas Tessier and Kathy Koja and um you know you even mentioned like Clive Barker I mean I think Clive Barker is like icon status but to to me but then to other people I mean people may not know him that well they know like hell razor but they don't know of Clive Barker you know his work. Um. I think what? what 1 of my professors told me when I was an undergrad was that quality writing and excellent creativity always gets noticed eventually talent always gets noticed and. I feel like the authors that we're talking about um and just authors in general I feel like any because I I imagine like a lot of horror authors listen to this podcast. You really have to.

04:41.26
Eric LaRocca
Stay dedicated and stay determined and stay in the game as long as possible and your time will come I know that for a fact, it's like not even and and it's not even like an option like it will happen. Ah, it just takes time I feel like. It. It takes time for people to like recognize talent and recognize oh that was actually quite good like I really liked that? Um, but that gives me hope you know that gives me hope that we all collectively will. Will get noticed in 1 way or the other.

05:17.77
Michael David Wilson
Yeah, yeah I think so and I mean usually it's that perseverance and that persistence and you know unfortunately the people that didn't get noticed. It's like are you. You bowed out before it was time So don't bow out keep going. Yeah.

05:38.60
Eric LaRocca
Yeah, just persevere I know it's I know it's so it's easier said than done and I know there are so many reasons to quit and there are so many reasons to just not write and just hang up your hat and just say you know what? it's not for me anymore. But. When it's good. It's really good and even in your darkest Moment. You know that to be True. So Just just keep on keeping On. It's really my mantra like just keep I'm just keep doing you and keep keep being true to yourself.

06:00.53
Michael David Wilson
Um.

06:16.76
Eric LaRocca
And you will find your readers.

06:17.99
Michael David Wilson
Yeah, yeah, well returning back to your collection now with the title story much like things have gotten Worse. It is an epistolary tale. Do You think this is a format. You'll always return to is it a format that you think people expect you to return to is it kind of like if we go to see Europe we. Hope that they will play. The final countdown is it blackslab of playing paranoid.

06:59.57
Eric LaRocca
I definitely think it's like my calling card at this point I feel like it's something that I've kind of established myself as okay. Eric's probably gonna pull out something epistolary related. Um. Really enjoy writing in that format I really enjoy writing. Ah you know with the idea of like journal entries or I am instant messages. You know stuff like kind of like found footage but like in literature fiction form. Um I just I get a lot of enjoyment from that and I think it's something that I probably will continue I've been working on a few new projects and it definitely incorporates like elements of mixed media in in these pieces. Um I think it's something that I'll always work. It will always work itself into my work. No matter what? um I just find it really fascinating to write from those varying points of view and and you know, kind of create like a little puzzle for my readers I think that that's. I think it's really interesting.

08:09.62
Michael David Wilson
And in terms of an introduction to this story I mean we spoke a little bit previously about a spoiler. But what we haven't in fact, got into is. What is the origin story for this.? How did this story come about.

08:35.10
Eric LaRocca
That's a great question. Um I think that and the genesis for this story was really me wanting to explore cycles of trauma and especially like in a family setting how we kind of seem to inherit. Trauma from our parents and then that's passed down to us and in turn we pass it down to our offspring or people we interact with people we love and I I think if I remember correctly I was just thinking about that one day how um inherited trauma seems to be like. Something that is pretty prevalent. What I think in family like in the family dynamic and I thought of a situation ah like a narrative with ah someone who inherits this kind of trauma and then passes it On. Somebody else. But in turn really gets punished for it and that's you know the end of the piece where that's like the twist at the end of the piece is um, it's all about surviving your worst moment. But how surviving is almost like. A worse form of punishment than actually dying and I think that that's really frightening and I talk about that at the beginning of the story. The skin was once mine and I loop it around back to the end of the piece where the main character. Um, you know Spoiler Alert. Ah, she.

10:08.70
Eric LaRocca
Finds herself in a situation that she cannot escape from now. It's like inevitable. She's worked herself into this literal grave and she needs to come to terms with that and it's all because of the trauma that she's inherited from her father from her mother. Um, and from this. This new person in her life that she didn't really know about um and I think the piece says a lot about like I said before like ah just about surviving things about enduring things I think there's there's a line in this piece where it's like there's nothing romantic about becoming a survivor. And it's true like you know, becoming a survivor means that you've experienced such suffering such Agony you know there's no poetry in that there's no I don't think there's there's um, you know there's there might be like empowerment. You've survived, but it's it's a difficult thing that you've overcome and it was difficult when you went through it and it's difficult to look back on it at least that's what I think when I when I think of my own things that I've gone through and things that I've endured. Yes, it's empowering that I'm on the other side and then I'm looking back on it but it's painful to like think of those things and and go through those moments. Um, and that's really another major piece of what the.

11:37.90
Eric LaRocca
What the story is about and what the whole collection is about really too.

11:40.30
Michael David Wilson
And yeah I mean I think here you've encompassed the theme. The concern that is fretted throughout because it's about inheritance or disease or compulsion. Or things that are growing inside us there. There are things that we have no control over malevolent things that are kind of thrust into our life and it's like what do we do when. When we are faced with this trauma when we are faced with something out of our control. How How do we survive it. Do We survive it? What are the the next steps and I mean it. It is a concern that's. Kind of been throughout your work but I feel it has never been so present as it is here in this collection.

12:44.60
Eric LaRocca
I Definitely agree and I think I I I wonder if I'm like I'm grappling with my own mortality more lately if I'm just thinking about like death and um, surviving like getting through life more. Um.

13:01.48
Eric LaRocca
Like for instance, the the second story in this book seedling that you know if we could just if you're okay with jumping to that story for a little bit. Um, that piece is really influenced by me coming to terms with my parents mortality and how.

13:08.83
Michael David Wilson
Of of course. Yeah, yeah.

13:20.80
Eric LaRocca
I view them how I might react if I got the call one morning that you know my mom had passed away or my dad had had died. Um I don't like thinking about those moments but um i. I do struggle with ocd with obsessive thoughts and those thoughts do come to me from time to time and they're incredibly upsetting. Um and writing that piece was really therapeutic in a lot of ways because it allowed me to kind of. Play in that world that make believeve world. It's not going to be makebel believe for long unfortunately because we all will get that call eventually that you know our parent is no longer with us. Um, but writing horror for me is just super cathartic because it allows me to. Face my anxieties and my troubles in a really controlled environment and that's what that piece did most of all for me seedling was it allowed me to really explore why I feel this way and just really come to terms with with their. Their inevitability like their the inevitability of their demises eventually. Um I don't love thinking about that. But it's something that I feel like we all do need to consider at 1 point or another um, it's not something that we can ignore and I think that speaks.

14:54.14
Eric LaRocca
Transgressive fiction in general transgressive horror fiction makes us confront things that we don't necessarily want to experience but they aren't necessary in some ways and I was talking about this on another podcast recently. How. This kind of horror fiction isn't for everyone for all the time. It's not something that I would recommend you read Twenty four seven eat sleep and breathe. But it's something that maybe you need when you need it. It's something that is necessary. When it is necessary if that makes sense.

15:31.75
Michael David Wilson
And it does make sense and if I think about this collection I feel that whilst it is all cohesive. It all very much builds from the first to the final story. I Kind of see the opening story and seedling as a pairing and then I see older parts of you that won't easily burn and prickle as another pairing because the first two is they're much more concerned with.

15:52.21
Eric LaRocca
A.

16:08.10
Michael David Wilson
Fractured family relationships. What home is what home isn't and kind of navigating these uncomfortable relationships being there for people in spite of the struggle in spite of the strained. Relationships whereas the the final 2 parts they almost take a kind of funny games turn. There's a little bit more kind of sadistic and messed up comedy and and play I do think they're. More playful pieces even though it's ah, a type of play that will only appeal to a certain type of person and I think as well. Whilst the first 2 of more to do with family. The. Final 2 they more to do with romantic relationships and sometimes forbidden romantic relationships and and fetishes and deviant and so yeah, i. I'm not even sure if there's a question attached to that. But that was an observation that I noted.

17:22.49
Eric LaRocca
I'll appreciate that I feel like the first two stories are very somber and quiet. Um, as quiet as you can be in like an Eric Laraca story obviously um and then the second the second. Set of stories all the parts of you and prickle I think you're absolutely right. I hadn't really considered that but there is like a playfulness to them and kind of a devance but like a wicked like sort of winking flirty almost like you know you like this. But maybe you don't like it. But I think you do like it. Um, that kind of like sultry smugness I don't know how to describe it. but um I definitely think you're right but I think more than anything throughout the collection. What I really strive to to create what I hope was. And I think we touched on this a little bit earlier was like that escalation of of violence. Ah, and I think that's why I think you know reflecting on it more I think maybe that's why my agent and manager suggested editing the the first story so much was because. If you start at 10 you have nowhere to go. You know you have nowhere to go once you've kind of ah exploded and just made things depraved and cruel and sadistic. Ah, you have nowhere to grow really and.

18:53.57
Eric LaRocca
Feel like the the stories are almost like a perfect escalation of violence and depravity. You know you get the the sort of trauma and abuse in the skin was once mine then you get the more ah like perverted like. Cosmic body horror in seedling and then it goes into like Clive Barker ah kinky horror fetish territory in all the parts of you and then finally you just get this like just really cruel sadistic note. At the end of the collection with prickle where it just like completely turns up the volume to like 11 and ends on that really shocking moment and just leaves you there and I think I I don't know if any of that was planned. But I guess in some ways like maybe I did plan it that way. Maybe my subconscious was telling me to structure it that way while I was writing all of the pieces because I did write them in order like I said um so yeah. I'm I'm glad that I'm I feel like I'm discovering things about the book the more I talk about it to be honest.

20:09.20
Michael David Wilson
And yeah, well I mean actually this is something that came up when we were talking to kaffy cogia and she said that you know a story continues to evolve and to be told past. The point of writing the reader's interpretation and the discussion that adds more layers to it and so I do find you know with with my own work through conversations about it.

20:31.48
Eric LaRocca
Um, and.

20:42.13
Michael David Wilson
You almost learn more you uncover more I mean I Yeah I think Uncover is probably right. It was always there. But even you as the writer didn't didn't see it and then it's like ah this is what's going on.

20:57.14
Eric LaRocca
So that's ah, a huge reason as to why I sometimes will check reviews because sometimes and I think I can't remember if I've said this on this show or but I've I've said it somewhere before I learn a lot about my own writing. By reading other people's reaction to it and I will learn things that I hadn't considered before about something that I had sat with for like two or three years and it will completely shock me and like remold my like brain chemistry. Ah, but it is so rewarding when that happens and I love that interaction between reader and author and that's a that's a really big reason why I don't like when sometimes readers will ask me well, what did you definitively mean by this.

21:49.14
Eric LaRocca
I Don't like to answer those questions because I feel like it's more interesting if it's your interpretation of what I meant as opposed to me telling you exactly what I meant if that makes sense I would much rather us like. I would much rather create the work. Maybe it's maybe it's figurative. Maybe it's like metaphorical. Um, and then you as the reader like interact with it and come up come to the table with different ideas and you bring your own. You bring your own concepts your own pasts and histories to it and that informs you know the way you think about about the piece I think that that's really that's where like literature stems from I feel like that relationship Between. Reader and author it's like this unspoken agreement that like I've written this work and you're going to interpret it. However, you choose to interpret it based on your past and your you know your preferences and and what have you?? Um I Just I love that. I Think that that's just so exciting.

23:02.91
Michael David Wilson
And I think the question. What did you definitively mean by whatever is almost an impossible one to answer because much like we said, you're a different person every single day. I Mean what does any action ever. Definitively mean that's a lot of gravitas to put on a single action I mean what it what is love definitively that you can't answer that it's a verb. It's Changing. It's ever evolving.

23:40.29
Eric LaRocca
A.

23:41.56
Michael David Wilson
So I don't I don't know if there's ever a definitive meaning behind anything.

23:48.50
Eric LaRocca
I agree and I mean that the the films and the books that I love I I'm still struggling to decipher them and what they mean and. I'll probably continue to work out those riddles as long as I'm alive and I don't like having all the answers I feel like a lot of readers maybe prefer to have everything like tied up in like a neat little bow. But that's I like things that are messy and that are complicated and. Challenged me and like I'm thinking to myself. Well what? what did he mean by that like what did the author mean by this and that's that's what's Exciting. You know that's what's ah that's what challenges us and keeps us. Engaged in literature.

24:41.00
Michael David Wilson
And I think too that art can have a different meaning for you a different time and just because the new meaning is Uncovered. It doesn't. Belittle. It doesn't invalidate the old meaning it's like that's the meaning it had for me then this is the meaning it has for me now.

25:03.70
Eric LaRocca
Right? It's allowed to change. Absolutely.

25:09.29
Michael David Wilson
But 1 of the concepts and the ideas particularly in the opening story is this notion of home and what home is and indeed. In this story. There's there's the challenge. The idea that home doesn't exist when you grow up home is something that you outgrow I wonder how much truth do you think there is there.

25:34.23
Eric LaRocca
Okay.

25:45.80
Michael David Wilson
What is home to you and does the idea that it can be outgrown resonate with you.

25:56.40
Eric LaRocca
I Think it's it's something that I think about a lot and it's something that ah makes me kind of sad because I grew up in a beautiful home and I had a had a great fulfilling childhood I mean there was. There was there were elements that I probably would have changed if I if I could if I could wave like a magic wand and and change certain things I probably would have um but I had a very like fulfilling and pleasant childhood. But. Once I reached a certain age I realized that you do outgrow that comfort and that like Childish naivete and the world is a frightening place I think it is I think you know there's. So many horrors in this world and I don't know what home is I don't know if I found home. Um I don't know if.

27:03.50
Eric LaRocca
Was almost going to say like you know you maybe you find home and like another person but then like can you trust that other person are they really like worthy of of you calling them home I don't I don't know. I I struggle with that sometimes and I do feel kind of restless. A lot of the time wondering like if I will find home.

27:32.16
Michael David Wilson
I Wonder if home can be another person without you fully needing to trust them because because like everything else that the theme throughout this conversation is that everything. Changes Everything fluctuates So I'm not sure that to describe a person or a place as home means that you need to have the guarantee that you will feel safe and comfortable and secure there forever.

28:09.32
Eric LaRocca
Ah.

28:09.48
Michael David Wilson
You just need to feel safe and comfortable and secure there in the moment and that's okay and that can make it or them or whatever it is home.

28:21.90
Eric LaRocca
You look at things more positively than I do I ah.

28:28.39
Michael David Wilson
Yeah, this ah this comes up in a lot of conversations with my friend Kev Harrison who's also the this is our news editor and a writer amongst many of it things he has a very.

28:38.00
Eric LaRocca
Oh yeah, yeah.

28:45.50
Michael David Wilson
Bleak view of humanity and I'm always trying to to find the light even if there's only a little glimmer but but I think you know the the reason as to that is because I'd prefer to live in a world. Where there is light where there is hope and even if it were to turn out that there wasn't probably in my own delusion in this hypothetical situation I would feel more positive and I think.

29:17.80
Eric LaRocca
I Like that.

29:21.50
Michael David Wilson
You know, feeling happy feeling positive is something that has got me through things I mean people know that the yeah and the last three years particularly not the previous but the 2 before were very very bleak and I I don't know if I didn't believe. That there would be light at some point I'm not sure that I'd still be here because what would be the point but I think in in a bizarre way and it it all sounds terribly cliche but in having endured.

29:49.10
Eric LaRocca
The.

29:59.77
Michael David Wilson
Darkness and then found that later. There is light. There is Joy. There is hope it kind of sets me up that if in the future there there are other periods of intense. Almost agonizing excruciating darkness then I will be able to remember that there were also periods after darkness where there is light I think that's what keeps me going and yeah in in a way enduring difficult. Times enduring Darkness has enabled me to to believe more in the light I know other times I'm I'm I feel oddly appreciative that it's me who has endured some of these things and not of a people because some people. You know who who are wired differently and'd. Be like forget it. It's too dark I'm out So I don't I don't know I it. It's interesting how you know I I've I've been able to.

30:59.70
Eric LaRocca
Yeah.

31:11.44
Michael David Wilson
Endure these battles so far. Hopefully it will continue.

31:12.74
Eric LaRocca
Yeah, yeah, no I I Love that you have that that attitude and I so I strive to to Stay. You know somewhat positive. Um, it's difficult. It's more difficult for me. Ah sometimes But. Um, I'm really lucky because I do have like a really great support system around me and I have people that really care and um, you know I'm I'm one of those people that needs. Ah.

31:47.39
Eric LaRocca
I mean I need ah care from others sometimes like I can't do it on my own you know I need that push from other people and I've always been like that. Um, and I'm not ashamed of that or anything. Um, but. It makes me really grateful for like you know my boyfriend and my parents but it also frightens me and makes me really scared of the moment when they may not be there and I have to do it on my own and I think that's where a lot of my writing stems from a lot of. Like that's the wound that I write from a lot that like you know being left behind or being the only one left. Um, that's just it's it's something I think about and ah I work that into my my writing as much as possible.

32:40.30
Michael David Wilson
Yeah I think sometimes maybe my optimism looks easy or that it's not a struggle to some people outside of me which is of course everybody but you know it it. It. It can be a struggle. It can be difficult but I I do it in spite of that. So I don't want anyone to think it's easy or oh I wish I was you know built like. Like Michael David Wilson he he seems to find positivity easy now is it's difficult but I do it in spite of that difficulty. And yeah, sometimes I don't even know where that comes from but I'm glad that that that it's there and. In terms of the the fear of being alone in terms of you know your boyfriend not being there your parents not being there and then being alone I mean it's a very natural fear and. I mean one would hope and one would trust that even though there'll be different people there for you at different times within your life that you'll never truly be alone and I feel that this might be the optimism inadvertently coming out again. But like.

34:09.75
Michael David Wilson
You know if we're putting this positivity and this joy and this kindness into the world and people are receptive to that and you're kind of given that back and you can see that you know even throughout your career. You mentioned Kaffy Cogia and you've mentioned Bentley little before and. Yeah there's just the way in which they have responded to you so it. It's a completely natural fear that you might be alone one day but but I don't think it will manifest in reality and you. You certainly don't deserve that so I I try my best to not fixate on it too much even though I know that I can fixate on these weird situations I think in a way it's part of being a horror writer.

34:56.29
Eric LaRocca
Um, yeah.

35:03.30
Eric LaRocca
Absolutely um I appreciate that you said that That's very very sweet and I'm going to hold on to that in my and my dark moments.

35:11.15
Michael David Wilson
Yeah, yeah, and I mean mentioning seedling before and we mentioned nods obviously naming a character clive was an obvious Clive Barker

35:25.30
Eric LaRocca
Um, yeah, yeah.

35:28.55
Michael David Wilson
Not that that's not one that we really need to ah decipher or unpack too much. But as as I think you said before that this is the weird fiction piece. This is like kind of your your cosmic horror your David K Cronenberg

35:31.44
Eric LaRocca
No, probably not.

35:47.17
Michael David Wilson
Kind of moment I felt and I mean I noted with with this and of course with older parts of you that won't easily burn. This is about kind of. I Mean it's not just about this but it touches on the theme of almost forbidden pleasures or unusual kinks and deviances because there's a real pleasure in in like kind of protruding.

36:22.49
Eric LaRocca
Kept. Yeah.

36:24.42
Michael David Wilson
The father wound and then in older parts of you that won't easily burn. There's the putting the glass inside 1 ne's body and it's like oh okay, there's a bit of a a kick to that. There's something going on there and. I mean I I feel that like I mean it it there is ah as well like a kind of metaphor and like in terms of people being concerned as to what other people's pleasure is and what they're enjoying and trying to get into. Their business and being like oh you're you're not allowed to enjoy this but I wondered if we could speak to that.

37:14.56
Eric LaRocca
Yeah, well so I I did an interview recently. Um for a local Boston magazine and we talked about um the seedling and all the parts of you that won't easily burn. Um, so you know in particular. And what I noticed when I was talking about both of those stories is that there is almost a level of like coded queerness that is in both stories. You know in seedling you have the the sun. Who has come home to discover his mother's corpse is still in the house and his father is like pleading with him like please say your goodbyes to your mother before you know they take her away and and ah you know then he starts to recognize these like ah wounds that are growing on his on his body and then. His father has the same sort of affliction and he starts like exploring these wounds like his own his father's um, but there's something there's something like incestuous about it and there's something like coded like ah queer. Queer about it where it's like you know a different kind of of sexuality. Ah that I'm like exploring and the same sort of thing happening in all the parts of you that won't easily burn and I don't know if this was intentional I mean possibly.

38:45.95
Eric LaRocca
Ah, when I look back on it. It seems like maybe I did mean this to to correlate the way it did but you have in all the parts of you that won't easily burn. You have ah Enoch the the main character of that piece who ah discovers himself developing an unusual fetish. For slicing himself and inserting little tiny broken pieces of glass inside the wound I mean there's another coded example of of queerness going on and I think that that thread of queerness is running throughout. The entire collection. It's not just limited to those two stories you have that same level of queerness that coded level of queerness in the skin was once mine with the ambiguously gay Ambrose who's like the pseudo villain of the piece. And then you have ah you know, similar coded interactions between Mr Chessler and Mr Spiro in prickle. Maybe they love each other Maybe they don't um, that's just interesting. How I think I was really playing like. Homage to a lot of those like twentieth century ah literatureter you know fiction short stories that I that I read like pieces by like role doll or um, you know trying to think of other ones.

40:21.45
Eric LaRocca
Ah, authors that are not explicitly in the horror canon but are like horror adjacent and I think I was really like paying homage to those moments where authors would make these these coded gestures between. 2 male characters or 2 women characters. Um, you know for instance like I was a huge fan still am of ah Tennessee Williams I mean a phenomenal playwright who a lot of his pieces are um. Examples of coded queer sexuality I mean a lot of his his protagonists and his plays are inserts of himself and other people he knew. Um and I think I was really playing with that. But especially, it's especially coded this this collection. The skin was one's mine. Is definitely coded in like explicit queerness and I I just I find that really interesting to play around with.

41:25.97
Michael David Wilson
You know because you bring up Tennessee Williams it occurs to me that as this collection progresses. It becomes easier to adapt each of the stories into a play. With prickle being the obvious kind of most easy almost Samuel Becket 2 characters format. But I mean it. It would not take a lot to adapt all the parts of you that won't easily burn into.

41:45.62
Eric LaRocca
Um, oh yeah.

41:51.22
Eric LaRocca
Now.

42:01.77
Michael David Wilson
Ah, play Even that's quite a tight cast of people.

42:03.69
Eric LaRocca
And that's intentional, especially for prickle I love any sort of piece that is limited in setting and limited in character I love to watch any sort of drama you know play film. Where it's 1 setting and a tight cast of characters I love to see what's going to happen in that place. You know where's the conflict going to come from. How is the space going to change based on the way the characters interact with one another. How are the characters going to in turn. Change the way they interact with with one another are there going to be physical changes or is it all going to be you know figurative? Um, that to me is just really exciting as a viewer. So when I sat down to write prickle I really wanted to write something that was 1 location. 2 characters and almost write it like ah like a Samuel Beckett play or like a Tennessee Williams drama or even um, the the zoo story by Edward Alby which is about ah 2 men who meet in a park on a bench. Just. They have no prior relationship like they do in my story. They just happen to meet one another. Um, if I recall that correctly. Um, but ah, yeah, no I mean I would love to see an adaptations of of my work as.

43:34.49
Eric LaRocca
You know theater and and film and and anything.

43:37.92
Michael David Wilson
And another observation when reading older parts of you that won't easily burn and prickle so with older parts I felt throughout. There's a foreboding disquieting. Sense of horror even though it's light and it's more playful. It is a horror story but for me and I I don't I don't know however, readers reacted. You might know more because you've. Read some of the reviews but the last line in older parts almost turned it into more a comedy because of how absurd it had become whereas with prickle. It is lighter in tone. It is more. Ah, funny games comedy throughout. Although last time on the podcast I said I thought funny games. It was a comedy people were like you you 1 messed up guy. But then the final line of prile makes it much more horrific. So was that.

44:43.32
Eric LaRocca
Um, yeah.

44:51.88
Michael David Wilson
Intent you know that you've got right that. The third story is more horror than final line comedy. The final story more comedy final line horror.

44:59.63
Eric LaRocca
Ah.

45:02.77
Eric LaRocca
Yeah I mean it's about inverting those expectations and playing with what are people going to expect when they open this story and when they you know, go through these pages and live through these characters with. All the parts of you that won't easily burn I wanted to structure it ah almost like a Martin Mcdonough play um I don't know if you're familiar with him but he's ah like a really exceptional playwright he um he wrote a be handing and so. Bocaine I believe I'm trying to think he wrote the pillow man a bunch of really just a like awesome awesome like darkly comic absurd plays and um. I really wanted to write something that started off really grounded in that like horror space like that sort of clive barkery fetish disturbing horror content and then the the final scene of the The piece is like this grand gono type reveal where there's like gore everywhere. It's just completely absurd and the last line like turns it into almost like a farce. Um and I really loved playing I really love playing with.

46:29.74
Eric LaRocca
Readers expectations and I feel like that line is so out of left field that it will surprise people just the same way that the ending of prickle will surprise readers in what happens at the very end of that piece. Where it starts off like really lighthearted and you know two old friends. These elderly gentlemen who are meeting in the Park. One's been away for a while you know because he had medical issues was away on holiday and was. You know he finally came back and meeting up with with his with his friend his friend and they revive this game where they enact little cruelties on people who pass by and it starts off like pretty innocuous and then it just. Goes up to 11 like I said and I really think that the strength of that piece is in how lighthearted it starts and then how it ends so devastatingly and I think it was absolutely intentional. Um it. It was. It was something I was very very much thinking about while writing the entirety of that piece and I I think if I remember correctly um I write so much So I Sometimes forget like the process of writing each story. But if I remember correctly.

47:59.10
Eric LaRocca
I Knew what the final line of that book of that story was going to be before I even started writing the piece and that's why I called it. Prickle.

48:09.30
Michael David Wilson
Yeah, yeah, and I mean that there's so many narrative threads and callbacks and crossovers throughout these 4 Stories I mean a lot that we haven't even mentioned but I mean it occurs to me that if we think about the end of older parts of you that won't easily burn and. And something or someone who is found I mean you can almost link that into the title story you could have if you'd wanted to have literally had them crossover it wouldn't have taken too much but that there's just so much going on and I.

48:56.40
Eric LaRocca
True.

49:04.80
Michael David Wilson
I Feel this is a collection where you know it. It would benefit from multiple readings. Yes I know that there are going to be little tricks that you've employed that I haven't picked up on yet and yeah, it's always very exciting discovering. Those crossovers and those Easter eggs.

49:23.50
Eric LaRocca
Thank you so much that means a lot I Really appreciate that.

49:28.53
Michael David Wilson
And in the title stories. So we're we're going back to Spoiler Territories so you mentioned you somebody who is. Discovered shall we say when you were writing that did you think about or was. The the real life horror of Joseph Fritzel someone that sprang to mind because it occurs to me. There's quite a few parallels there.

50:05.98
Eric LaRocca
Um, that's Nate that name isn't ringing a bell who is that.

50:07.90
Michael David Wilson
So Joseph Fritzel is the I believe austrian guy who kept his daughter imprisoned in a basement for something like 18 years

50:22.93
Eric LaRocca
Oh okay, gotcha gotcha. Um yeah I vaguely vaguely know I just didn't recognize the name. Um, yeah I mean that that story is so um, entrenched in trauma and just depravity. Um, and going back to the conversations I had with my agent and my manager I really am glad that I listened to them and took some elements out because some of it was just too much and there comes a point when. I think I said this earlier you if you start at like an 11 you can't go anywhere from there and to start off a so you know a story collection with 1 of like a really graphic rape scene or just a scene of abuse like. It's it's really difficult to to go anywhere and it's probably a little difficult for readers to trust you in some way that you know you're going to be tactful and that you're going to like guide them through this collection. Um i. I definitely think I made the right choice listening to my agent and my my manager about scaling back some of those those scenes. Um, but there are definitely moments I mean real life is stranger than fiction. A lot of the time and there are definitely cases I've come across.

51:58.81
Eric LaRocca
I thought wow this would be like perfect for an Eric Laroca story it seems like it was ripped right out of something I would write. Um, and yeah I mean I'm I'm always kind of like looking on different forums for like. You know, weird shit that has happened online or ah, weird cold cases or things that have been unexplained I just I I really find that fascinating. Um and at the end of the day like horror is about humanity. And it's about it's about our empathy too. It's about like recognizing the fact that we're observing or living through a character that is going through the very worst moment of their life and we hopefully have the empathy to identify with that. And suffer along with them.

52:58.96
Michael David Wilson
And all, right? Well I think that is a fantastic summation of not only the collection but of your entire body of work and it is always a pleasure chatting to you and. Getting to explore your work and your mind and so once again, thank you so much for being so generous with your time.

53:26.41
Eric LaRocca
Oh my gosh. It was my pleasure. Thank you so much for having me and for reading the collection I I really am so honored that it resonated with you. It means a lot to me.

53:37.50
Michael David Wilson
Yeah, this is an absolutely fantastic collection and I hope that people who haven't will go out and will buy. Yeah, the the new collection or the forthcoming collection and I hope too that they'll pick up. Previous two because like you said I mean it it almost it it it forms a trilogy they are connected and they show kind of different different shades I suppose of your. Evolution as a writer of your journey as a writer. So yeah, there is a lot for people to discover who haven't already that's for sure where can.

54:22.81
Eric LaRocca
Absolutely thank you so much.

54:29.20
Michael David Wilson
Our listeners connect with you.

54:32.13
Eric LaRocca
So I'm on ah Twitter slash x at hysteric teeth and I'm also on Instagram same handle hysteric teeth and I'm also on Facebook and blue sky as well. Although I don't. Haven't been posting as much ah blue sky lately I should probably post more there. Um, but I'm I'm pretty active on x and Instagram for the most part.

54:58.41
Michael David Wilson
All right? Do you have any final thoughts to leave the listeners and viewers with.

55:08.30
Eric LaRocca
Ah so many thoughts. Ah yeah, no I'm just I'm very grateful I'm very grateful that I get to continue to write horror and really honored that people seem to be responding to it.

55:25.42
Eric LaRocca
Good and bad I appreciate all of it and I just hope horror continues to thrive and um hopefully I'll be back next year and we can talk about my new novel.

55:37.46
Michael David Wilson
All right looking forward to it.