TIH 557: Adam Godfrey on Writing Routine, Literary Agents, and Artificial Intelligence

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00:00.49
Michael David Wilson
Adam welcome to this is horror podcast. So of course we've got you on the show because we thoroughly enjoyed your release narcissus which came out around a year ago now. But.

00:03.62
Adam Godfrey
Hey thanks so much pleasure being here.

00:20.23
Michael David Wilson
Before we jump into the book I Want to go all the way back to the start of your life because I want to know what some of the early life lessons were that you learnt growing up.

00:32.79
Adam Godfrey
Oh man. So so I didn't lead any kind of extraordinary life. You know I I don't have a whole lot to report on here is pretty average. you know, um you know good family. You know mom and dad. You know they they weren in the school system. Um, yeah. Came up you know with 2 sisters and pretty much my whole family went into education. So I swore I said that's not gonna be my career path and I saw the struggles they dealt with as teachers I see yes, that's not not me and my dad say good man he said yeah, find something else. So um.

01:07.71
Adam Godfrey
You know I always enjoyed writing you know from a young age and man as long as I can remember you know far back grow up breathing sci-fi and horror and you know I guess nowadays just kind of morphed into you know that they're they're my primary interests. You know, ah like merging you know the technology and science with horror and. You know, coming up with his genre-bending Concepts but yeah, it's you know, writing from a young age. It. It wasn't till I was an adult you know I think around 2015 when I really started writing seriously and making a solid attempt that. Publishing stories and writing my first novel and um, you know and and I guess along the way you mentioned life lessons probably my biggest life lesson looking back would be don't put so much stock in other people's opinions and don't let that stifle. You know. What? what I want to do because I guess along the way you know I would listen other people who you add to like they had been there done that you know or read articles. You know speaking to how you know you just don't make any money you know writing or yeah, whatever you know, being younger, you know money is a ah primary concern you know, but really. Above everything you know I feel like if you really enjoy what you're doing and you feel compelled to do do that thing you know like writing I was it was a compulsion I Just loved It. You know and um I like doing it for the craft of it. Um, the money will come later I Guess in time if if that's meant to be so you know it.

02:40.66
Adam Godfrey
Took being an adult and maturing a bit to really realize that later and and just make a go at it and um, yeah, so I mean that that's that's kind of you know I probably left out a whole lot of stuff about my life in between there. So you know you know I mentioned to Bob you know.

02:57.34
Adam Godfrey
Before we kicked off the the podcast here you know I was in the air force. And yeah, so that was early two thousand s and so yeah and I'm kind of all over the place here. But if if you have any ah questions or I could expand on any of that.

03:14.41
Michael David Wilson
Yeah, if we didn't have any further questions. It would definitely be the shortest conversation that we've had on the podcast. It's like I don't think they were very prepared for this one. But no, we have a vast amount of questions and I mean you're talking about.

03:20.64
Adam Godfrey
Um, yeah, yeah, all truly.

03:29.11
Adam Godfrey
Very good.

03:34.32
Michael David Wilson
Writing stories from an early age I'm wondering. Do you remember the first story that you wrote or do you remember the first story that was. Impact for lever for you or perhaps got a reaction from whoever you read it to.

03:53.62
Adam Godfrey
Ah, one of the earliest stories. Yeah yeah, so my my aunt she she would come over and visit and I would always have a story ready to hand over to or I would say fragments of this one particular story. And was just writing little by little and she always you know seemed to enjoy reading it when she visits so in this particular story I think it was called a day in the sun and it was about um you know pretty basic. You know kid level concept here. But yeah, the the sun would creep closer and closer to earth. You know with every passing day and you know things got hotter and hotter and people were kind of figuring out what they were going to do until you know, kind of the bleak ending of it. You know it's obviously not going to come to a happy ending. Um, yeah so I think that was probably 1 of my my earliest. Um. Story memories I think of something I put together I don't know what happened to that story. So I kind of like to find it read it again now. Yeah.

04:46.67
Michael David Wilson
Yeah, yeah I love that concept and I love how brutal it was. You know I wondered if there was going to be a solution to stop the sun getting nearer but it's like no no it just just gets nearer and then well.

04:55.59
Adam Godfrey
Um, and yeah, and.

05:03.47
Michael David Wilson
You are You are literal toast as it were.

05:05.73
Adam Godfrey
Yeah, it's pretty much how it ended so yeah and that was probably 1 of my first realizations that not every story has to have a happy ending. You know it's not every story's going to have an ending. It might be up to the reader to kind of imagine hey what? what happens next and I think a lot of my my my work kind of.

05:08.79
Michael David Wilson
Yeah.

05:17.73
Michael David Wilson
Yeah.

05:22.18
Adam Godfrey
And you know in a similar way. You know I like to leave it up to the reader to kind of speculate as to what happens ultimately and you know provides for good discussion.

05:30.60
Michael David Wilson
Yeah, yeah, well I didn't cavin some level of ambiguity. It just makes it more interesting and it means that the story continues beyond the page and you're pondering it. You're considering Okay, well what.

05:41.19
Adam Godfrey
Um, yeah, Alex.

05:46.87
Michael David Wilson
What is next to her as if it's all wrapped up then then that is the end.

05:49.35
Adam Godfrey
Right? Yeah, absolutely.

05:53.91
Michael David Wilson
And I mean if you think about those early times. What were you experiencing in terms of story. Were you reading a lot of books were you watching. A lot of movies. What were those first experiences with story.

06:14.60
Adam Godfrey
You know, probably more eat I got kind of a child of cinema I think over anything else. So yeah, all the 80 s and and 90 s horror and sci-fi and everything is what I was really into you know, creep show and fright night and. You know tales from the dark side of the movie and twilights own the movie and the twilight zone series. You know the old one and then the 80 s one you know and I was hooked on that stuff so outer limits things like that you know that's where I derive a lot of my passion. You know for drove a lot of my passion for writing you know to begin with. So. Yeah, um, you know as far as reading you know Michael Crichton um Ray Bradbury or you know Stephen King's you know collections and yeah, but I think primarily you know it's yeah film. This was probably my major influence.

07:09.64
Michael David Wilson
And yeah, well were some of the films that were particularly instrumental possibly not Blade runner according to your post on social media recently.

07:18.70
Adam Godfrey
Yeah, yeah, oh man I know I'm gonna catch a lot of hate for that. But yeah, it's no, no, not blade runner and honestly I didn't even see that until I was an adult you know a few years ago and I said you know I got to watch this movie I hear so much about it and maybe it's just it was such a masterpiece in its day and I can appreciate that fact. You know for me seeing it for the first time. Maybe it just didn't translate well now I don't know it was. It was such a a slog for me, you know and I say man this is this is a boring film you know and maybe I'm missing something here. You know, but I wasn't a fan you know and I don't know I don't know mileage may vary with that one and it does you know. Think I'm probably an outlier on that. But um, yeah, as as far as um, you know horror film man probably from too young an age you know like I probably shouldn't have been watching this stuff. You know, but like the howling you know that's one that freaked me out gave me nightmares. You know pretty young. Um, you know like I mentioned you know fright night and and creep show and trying to think I don't know if you remember or if if where you were if you had this I think it it was on Fox you know the Fox Network at the time but it was a show called werewolf.

08:34.14
Adam Godfrey
It was in the 80 s like the mid 80 s do either of you remember that one.

08:37.60
Michael David Wilson
I don't know that one. But yeah I knew Bob would like.

08:39.83
Bob Pastorella
Yeah, well I'm trying to think um and if it was in the 80 s in the mid 80 s um, do you remember who the lead was because I may be confusing with the werewolf movie.

08:46.63
Adam Godfrey
Yeah.

08:57.10
Bob Pastorella
That I believe came in on Cbs that ah had a um, the guy the guy he he looked like Robert Reed but he wasn't Robert Reed and I can't think of his name. Um, he could stand in for Mr Brady any day of the week

08:58.25
Adam Godfrey
Whom.

09:10.64
Adam Godfrey
I think.

09:16.90
Bob Pastorella
Um, you know so but it wasn't him. It's like you look and you go ask? Mr But no it's not in ah that may I mean that and it came out around the same time but I'm trying to think I've probably seen this werewolf show I'm probably seen it.

09:21.15
Adam Godfrey
Yeah.

09:34.12
Adam Godfrey
it's it's yeah it's it's really weird I mean I loved it when I was a kid you know I think it was eighty six eighty seven somewhere around there when it came out and um the the bad guy you know was let's see it was like Alamojo and and he had an eye patch and he was hunting this this.

09:34.21
Bob Pastorella
Ah, because that name sounds familiar.

09:41.75
Bob Pastorella
I.

09:50.66
Adam Godfrey
Teenager down who I think he was a teenager but anyway he but he had been. You know infected and you know and he he transformed to this were a wolff but um, he's trying to find you know the the one that did it, you know and and put an end him so he can cure himself but you know pretty simple plot. You know, but I was that was ah. You know it so it was a cool show and it had really cutting edge effects for it today. But yeah, that really sticks out in my mind you know and I haven't run across but a handful of people who remember that you know and surprisingly it was never um, they actually maybe it was recently released to Bluray or Dvd but um. Think there was a hangup with the music rights or something like that for years and and for that reason it was never able to be released, but ah, yeah, so anyways stuff like that. Yeah, it was always really cool to me forced. You know a little bit down the line tails from the crypt and you know stuff like that and so. And was always a huge fan of anthologies. Yeah, some of my favorite stuff.

10:49.53
Michael David Wilson
Oh yeah I mean I of course like creep show and the twilight zone which you mentioned and then you know decades later I don't know if you remembered a masters of horror series. But that was so good like.

10:53.53
Adam Godfrey
I.

11:01.75
Adam Godfrey
Yes, yes, and fear. Yep, if fear itself was another one I think make Garris produced that or directed out. Oh yeah, that I love that I was so bumm when it was canceled.

11:06.18
Michael David Wilson
Just a kind of who's who are filmmakers and these like hour long shorts. Yes.

11:14.77
Bob Pastorella
And move him.

11:20.58
Adam Godfrey
That was some killer stuff there. But um, yeah, farther back you know cats eye Stephen King um body bags you know John Carpenter and yeah yeah, man could go on on I love all that stuff.

11:32.60
Michael David Wilson
Yeah, yeah, and of course I suppose more sci-fi black mirror is definitely up there in the conversation too in terms of these anthology series.

11:34.38
Bob Pastorella
And.

11:46.30
Adam Godfrey
Any you? Yes absolutely um, yeah I'd speaking of which so I've I've seen a few black mirror episodes. But you know I wrote a story. Um. Not long ago called called likeness and it was published in short wave magazine online. But anyway the story like this. It's about ah an a-list actress who's you know on the verge of career burnout and so she kind of makes a deal to sell her digital lightness to the studios to use as they see fit and so. Course that's dangerous territory there. She finds her digital likeness being used in ways she didn't agree to for political you know propaganda things of that nature and finds herself embroiled in this government conspiracy with her life on the line. So but anyway and somebody you know they said hey you know they they read it. They said this really reminds me a black mirror and evidently. I don't know if you know what episode I'm talking about but it was a similar concept and I'm one of them want to let me say it was called like Susan is not okay or something like that I probably got that. Okay, yeah yeah I said then.

12:45.91
Michael David Wilson
I and I know the episode you're talking about but I I don't have the titles memorized but I know what you're talking about. Yeah.

12:56.91
Adam Godfrey
Yeah I said that that sounds really similar. You know I thought I had a fresh concept here they said now that was kind of done in light year but yours is different. Yeah, so okay, yeah, but yeah, you're right? Cool show I love that kind of thing you know like I mentioned earlier the the genre blending. And yeah, where you can infuse technology and and. Science you know I think that's kind of the most terrifying stuff is you know things that are technologically or scientifically plausible. Um, yeah, because it it could happen. You know in a very near future if not now so things are getting freaky out there. You know with we look at Ai and stuff like that and all these emerges emerging. Capabilities and gene manipulation. And yeah, so it's becoming reality for sure.

13:38.27
Michael David Wilson
Yeah, yeah I mean the deep fake is a thing now and you you know, not not even just for sinister reasons but people are kind of creating these deep fakes for for comedy. It's probably not comedy.

13:43.18
Adam Godfrey
Yes, yes.

13:55.97
Michael David Wilson
For the person who's being deep faked but I saw like a number of bizarre Tom Cruise videos that had been put out and you know I mean if you just like with.

13:57.53
Adam Godfrey
Um, yeah, absolutely.

14:02.43
Adam Godfrey
Um, yeah.

14:10.10
Michael David Wilson
Ai art if you look closely. There are tailte or signs but it's yeah, it's it's amazing and also a little troubling. You know that it's got this far.

14:12.15
Adam Godfrey
Yeah.

14:21.76
Adam Godfrey
It's he it's disturbing honestly and you know people like to make fun of um, you know Ai and it's you know infancy right? now you know it doesn't seem to be too much ofcy I mean this stuff is pretty spot on. You know the way it's getting but like you said there there tellstale signs. Um, but it's easy to make fun of it. But you know it's not been out very long. It's an extremely immature technology and when you consider where we're going to be you know three five years ten years from now my god there it will be indistinguishable from reality. We've got to be able to have these. You know, technological checks and measures in place to identify what's Ai and what's not especially. You know we're talking about an entertainment industry and publishing how do you identify? what's Ai and what's not you know, a lot of publishers are saying hey we want to accept Ai content. Well, how do you know? you know I mean clearly straight generated. Open aos you know Chad Epd whatever content. It's gonna be gibberish. But if you've got people out there generating this stuff and then combing over it and manipulating it and polishing it all you know and they're submitting it who's any wiser really? So how do you know. Um, yeah I mean it's just pretty just scary stuff out there now I don't know how they're going to manage you know manage it and especially when we talk about you know you know political you know manipulation of elections and things like that and you know Propagan and stuff out there.

15:36.35
Michael David Wilson
So yeah, and.

15:54.20
Adam Godfrey
Um I don't know it's great. It's gonna create a lot of doubt out there where there's already a lot of doubt between sides and yeah I don't know mean it's gonna it's gonna get really freaking messy. We're not gonna be able to tell what was true history and what wasn't so.

16:09.91
Michael David Wilson
Yeah, and and I mean the ai conversation is something that we've attempted to have on this as horror before and we never get very far because it's so in its infancy right now we don't have all the.

16:11.85
Adam Godfrey
Time will tell.

16:23.33
Adam Godfrey
Money.

16:27.56
Michael David Wilson
Information and the data and the facts and I mean I think as well I mean for for a long time ai on some level has been used like in in all forms of life and. Yeah I mean you, you could even have like ah, an argument that even some of the features of Microsoft words such as the spelling and grammar check or a kind of soft ai so I think there will have to be a conversation in terms of when people are saying they don't accept.

16:56.70
Adam Godfrey
Yeah.

17:03.85
Michael David Wilson
Ai what does this mean now I know that the spirit of publishers and people saying it is that it's like well we we don't want something generated by chatter gp for example, but I think wording particularly.

17:04.47
Adam Godfrey
E.

17:17.48
Adam Godfrey
Man here.

17:23.00
Michael David Wilson
When it comes to legally putting this in contracts is going to be so important and like you say it's going to get so messy and what is and what isn't accepted, but.

17:32.40
Adam Godfrey
Right.

17:38.12
Michael David Wilson
And know like I say the conversation never gets too far because we don't have the knowledge yet to to know exactly what we're dealing with. We're all trying to figure this out.

17:43.78
Adam Godfrey
You know where do you want? Yeah now I agree and so where do you where do you? where do you draw the line because it is the inevitable future of everything. It's gonna be.

17:48.91
Bob Pastorella
So.

18:02.23
Adam Godfrey
Interlace intertwined into everything that you know, um, you can't shut it out completely or you're gonna stifle your own business or your your own enjoying that. Whatever whatever it is. You know like I I don't what but you do I don't know I think people are over.

18:03.46
Bob Pastorella
No.

18:20.21
Adam Godfrey
I Don't know there's a lot of unethicalities about it. You know, but but there's a lot of great stuff there. You know the great tremendous um, power behind it. You know and opportunities to use it. You know in positive ways. But it will undoubtedly be manipulated and you know used in all the wrong ways. So slippery slope you know.

18:40.15
Adam Godfrey
We'll see where it goes but I know an entertainment you know man you know it's speaking about the digital lightness stuff. You know is this reality now you know that story I told you but I wrote that you know a good year or so before stories started coming out I think it was ah it was the first one I heard was Bruce Willis

18:41.10
Bob Pastorella
Um.

18:59.60
Adam Godfrey
Had supposedly sold his digital likeness to studios I'm like holy cow I wrote this story. You know I wrote this like a year ago you know what? where are you serious? Um, you know and then it came out that was a lie and then I think there were actual proposals from various production companies saying hey we we legitimately do want to pursue this. So. I don't think anybody actually bought into it. Um, but things are very quickly going there.

19:25.59
Bob Pastorella
I think that I think the only actor that I've heard of that's done anything and um is James R Jones gave gave ah Lucas or disney rather the.

19:32.60
Adam Godfrey
Really.

19:40.86
Bob Pastorella
Rights to use his Darth Vader voice ah however they saw fit. So basically he you know he's retired the voice and um and gave it. You know, gave them ah the digital likeness of it. Um, which I could see how that could that could.

19:41.93
Adam Godfrey
Hey.

19:54.58
Adam Godfrey
Yeah.

20:00.14
Bob Pastorella
You know play in because you know and basically there's I think there's I think I counted there's like 12 to 14 actors who have done his voice outside of him so it's like every time like a video game or even in a movie and things like that some of some of the lines that that he says.

20:09.80
Adam Godfrey
She.

20:19.33
Bob Pastorella
In in the video games are not him they're they're an actor if you go to Imdb and look and you see who played dart fader. You'll be like looking for James L Jones and he's not in the cast because it's some actor who just imitated him you know and so um.

20:29.38
Adam Godfrey
Risk. Yeah well yeah.

20:37.53
Bob Pastorella
There's been about 13 or 14 I'm like well Don let them guys just have a shot at it and because now it's like you know what we hey we we? no, we don't need you. We got James we got James he's is he here? No no, no, we we got. He's on the computer. Yeah, we got him we got him? Yeah, and so I'm like that's crappy.

20:42.55
Adam Godfrey
Yeah, right.

20:49.10
Adam Godfrey
Right? It's it's crazy because I mean like you' yeah yeah I mean why? not you give it to those those people I mean if they can imitate the voice. Why why? not? Why do you need to buy the digital likeness. Hey um, there's plenty of um Jade Earl Jones and drawth vader impersonators out there.

20:58.91
Bob Pastorella
Um, yeah.

21:05.10
Adam Godfrey
That can swing that voice I'm sure but I think it's they're they're trying to set maybe a precedent by you know, just having that that highly public purchase or the acquisition of his voice. You know to say hey look den general duones did it you know and you know right? You know.

21:14.92
Bob Pastorella
Now. Yeah, yeah, it's a selling point. Yeah.

21:24.52
Adam Godfrey
It could be just leverage toward future procurements um or a motivator I guess I would say yeah so yeah I actually I hadn't heard about that with him though. That's interest there.

21:38.33
Michael David Wilson
I think there's an interesting one to consider as well in terms of like our own morality and ethics and what we would consider doing because I mean. If a company came to me and they said we want to license your voice I don't know why maybe this is how a podcast has got really big at this point and they're offering me like a really substantial sum of money. Well I'm going to at least hear them out.

22:06.14
Adam Godfrey
Yeah, right? Yeah, you're going to consider it.

22:11.59
Michael David Wilson
I'm going to get a lawyer to look at what we're talking about here because also I mean if you're using the Michael David Wilson voice that's not I'm not saying it so I'm I'm not endorsing everything that is being said.

22:14.83
Adam Godfrey
Yeah.

22:27.50
Adam Godfrey
Right? yeah.

22:29.51
Michael David Wilson
In the Michael David Wilson voice you have paid to be able to use it. But that doesn't mean that I agree with everything you're saying so I suppose. I mean that the amount of money is important here particularly if if anyone's listening if Spotify who have a lot of money because they given most of it to Joe Rogan if they want to throw a bit my way for my voice. It's like we got to look at exactly what the contract is saying here because. I mean I think all of us we we would hear them out. We would find out what exactly do you want here? Do I get a royalty every time you use the effect that is something to consider too.

23:05.53
Adam Godfrey
Yeah.

23:13.51
Adam Godfrey
It Absolutely? Um, Yeah, if anybody says they're they're not up for considering that they're full of it. You know and people can sit you know out on social media and say oh you know? So It's so sold out or whatever you know? yeah. If you if you had the opportunity to consider that I'm pretty sure you'd sit down and think long and hard about it. So no, no doubt. Ah I would do the same. Yeah I think I think the condition would be that there would have to be some kind of you know public notice or something is.

23:36.87
Michael David Wilson
Yeah.

23:47.20
Adam Godfrey
I don't know highly visible letting people know hey this is not the real Adam Gotfrey or you know, but you know before whatever they they spew through my voice. Um, yeah yeah.

23:52.90
Michael David Wilson
Yeah.

23:58.38
Michael David Wilson
Yeah, are I'm sounding like such a sellout but how visible the terms are would be proportionate to how much they've paid me to begin with the the more you've paid me the smaller we can make that print we need the print somewhere. But.

24:07.76
Adam Godfrey
Um, meaning right.

24:13.88
Adam Godfrey
Right? It's got to be somewhere. Yeah yeah.

24:17.40
Michael David Wilson
yeah yeah I mean I imagine with that kind of thing as well. You did probably be inevitable terms and conditions that that like you know you're not. Using it for hate speech. But then if you froze something in like that. Well now you've got to define what exactly does that mean? So yeah, it is Nick exactly.

24:37.71
Adam Godfrey
It might what maybe hate speech to you might not be to them and they can always wiggle out of it. No no, no will that's that's not wasn't the intent you misinterpreted? Yeah, ah.

24:49.16
Michael David Wilson
Yeah, yeah, but but but like you said before I mean the thing is anyway that in impersonation is getting so good that there's probably not going to be much of a need for this service anyway.

25:03.26
Adam Godfrey
Um, yeah.

25:04.64
Michael David Wilson
Yeah, that there are there are going to be people that can almost do an identical impression of of any voice. So.

25:10.43
Adam Godfrey
Yes, as far as audio is concerned. You know I guess you know this you know video games you know, whatever things of that nature. Yeah, where it's getting Where's gonna get really interesting is is more with the visual.

25:28.58
Adam Godfrey
And you you can see and I forgot the name Sorein I think was the name of the the new Ai video tool out there. You know to where you can plug in a little couple wine blurb and it will instantly generate a one I think it was a 1 to 2 minute video anything literally that you put in. It's just incredible. What comes out of that you know it's I think somebody you know I saw one where they said yeah you know create a scene with um a tortoise made out of glass crawling on a black sand beach at sunset.

26:03.40
Michael David Wilson
M.

26:03.82
Adam Godfrey
And sure enough boom I mean you would be able to distinguish it from the real deal. You know it. It was incredibly realistic. So yeah, that's the latest and greatest I've been reading up on that and things are really advancing rapidly so like the visual element. That's that's where it's really going to take off. And so once hollywood gets a taste of this you know I mean you think of the hundreds of millions of dollars they dump into productions that could just be drastically reduced through use of Ai you know are they really going to turn down that that opportunity.

26:34.96
Adam Godfrey
The viewers are gonna balk at it and Boycott for as long as they can but until they decide they really want to watch that movie. You know and finally the walls will come down and it'll suddenly be accepted. So I definitely see that happening to time will tell win.

26:52.46
Michael David Wilson
Yeah, yeah, and ah, there's so many tangents and directions. We could now take this conversation in and I mean I I do.

26:54.30
Adam Godfrey
Yeah, but yeah.

27:03.18
Adam Godfrey
Yeah.

27:08.41
Michael David Wilson
Believe and I've said before I I don't think that ai is going to be such a threatt to original. Ah you know soul-filled fiction because it is the human experience. It is like.

27:19.36
Adam Godfrey
Okay.

27:25.79
Michael David Wilson
Our imperfections and our flaws that make it so identifiable and I think something that is kind of trying to replicate that it will be phony to some extent because it's not actually coming from a real person. So I I think. There's a threat to different facets of the creative industry but I don't think we're going to see writers disappear or musicians disappear or artists disappear because people want that authentic experience and you know you're you're right? that. Particularly to begin with I think that people will view somebody's Ai movies purely as a curiosity but I think in terms of satiating their curiosity but also boycotting it. They'll find ways to be able to see it where they're not going to directly encourage it. But yeah, this is probably somewhat of a kind of creative experiment. But I think historically you know, authentic.

28:40.29
Michael David Wilson
Real art wins out and um, you know, even if that means that it's got more of a kind of cult or a different.

28:54.36
Michael David Wilson
Readership or viewership but I don't think that audience is going away.

28:57.33
Adam Godfrey
No I agree completely with you there. There is always I think that remain that human element. There will be a slow conditioning to the use of Ai over the years to be sure. But I think there's always could to have to be whatever's generated through Ai. There's you're going to see these emerging careers. You know, cropping up. Whatever they're going to be called, but the human reviewers you know where they have these parties of people sit down and review the content then start to sprinkle in that human element to tweak it to to you know. Real human emotion to to start integrating that into the content. So the ai would probably generate the core content then you'd have your human overlay you know process to mold that into a more acceptable format for the public. But yeah it. But and also.

29:52.98
Adam Godfrey
Go back to what you said about original content and that's the thing about Ai and chat gpt as far as publishing this concern right now is it's not ever going to be original. Not that it's purely derivative of you know. The content. Whatever it ingest to generate this It's all regurgitation of what's already out there. So. It's not coming up with anything entirely original. So um, yeah, and I've seen measures being taken you know as have you I'm sure you know people can opt out of that having their content used.

30:26.48
Adam Godfrey
You know I know Paul Tremblay you know you kind of keep that off a while back and kind of seem like he he initiated a movement toward that you know where people were pulling their data and there was a lawsuit filed you know for illicit use of his information and others his work I should say.

30:45.69
Adam Godfrey
So yeah, yeah I don't know where I was going with that but just kind of rambling I think at the same time. But.

30:49.84
Bob Pastorella
Well you you said something earlier in it and it kind of flows into this when you started writing how you were compelled to write and so there's a passion behind that and I don't think that a I.

30:56.75
Adam Godfrey
And. Yeah.

31:06.26
Bob Pastorella
And can especially in chat gdp can capture that passion. You'd have to have a human element you know and so I think a lot of the stuff that we see is people trying you know the people the pro Ai writing group are trying to bypass something.

31:10.37
Adam Godfrey
Yeah.

31:22.69
Bob Pastorella
That I know when I first started I was looking for when I first started writing in you know in the 70 s and eighty s when I was very young you know twelve years old and I wanted a plot wheel remember that remember the thing it's like they had this plot wheel you turn it and you get like these still different plots and everything like that I mean you could buy them and it.

31:40.40
Bob Pastorella
My my dad would never buy. It's like no no, no figure it out yourself. You know I'm like no I but just make it easy man who make it a plot and man you do the plot you know and he's like no no, no figure out yourself and now I'm so glad I learned how to do that on my own by reading and experiencing and writing and practicing.

31:43.75
Adam Godfrey
Um, yeah.

31:49.38
Adam Godfrey
Yeah, yeah. A.

31:59.91
Bob Pastorella
And I can't see under any other way to do it and so if I had a plot will now I probably wouldn't use it and so to me I almost see like this Ai chat g gtp thing being like a plot wheel and so the pro the proponents of this they want to use it because they want to bypass.

32:04.40
Adam Godfrey
Nothing.

32:17.40
Bob Pastorella
Thing that makes writing writing it's kind of like if you're playing a from software game and I come up with a mod that will allow you to beat the boss. You can just beat the boss man you just press 2 buttons and you beat the boss and they're like well what's the fun in that right? What's the fun in writing.

32:17.61
Adam Godfrey
Right.

32:24.45
Adam Godfrey
Bright.

32:30.65
Adam Godfrey
Right? Yeah yeah.

32:35.50
Bob Pastorella
That's what it is. That's what makes it fun. You know and it's compulsion and passion.

32:37.93
Adam Godfrey
Absolutely I agree.

32:43.49
Michael David Wilson
I Think this strand of conversation that kicked off this ai rabbit hole that we've been speaking about is you were talking about the short story that you wrote and then seeing that there was similarity to a black mirror.

33:03.17
Michael David Wilson
Episode and so you felt okay this isn't Original. So then you kind of abandoned that story but I don't necessarily agree with your conclusion that that wasn't original because I think what makes a story. Original is not necessarily.. The idea is not the concept. There's not even the bit of the plot we that you found but it's the writing it's back to that authenticity of your Experience. So I think I mean we could all have.

33:40.50
Michael David Wilson
Ah, story prompt or we we could go further. We could have a story concept that has some beats that we have to hit on but the fact that all 3 of us have a unique writing voice that would make each story original even if there are some in this year Similarities. So. I mean on that basis if that story isn't out there in the world I think you should go back to it because it sounds like a great story.

34:06.56
Adam Godfrey
Well so I'll I'll say yeah it it actually is I didn't man to abandon it entirely but it did deflate me a little when I found out about that black new so I was like ah man so it's not as original as the fault but it is out there with um.

34:13.75
Michael David Wilson
Right.

34:21.10
Adam Godfrey
Short wave. You know, shortwave publishing you know on their website they have shortwave magazine. So it's an online only publication. So it's out there. So if anybody googles lightness. You know they they can find that and read it. So yeah, there there was some you know film and Tv interest a little but little while back in that one actually. But they they were ultimately kind of I think studios shied away from that one because of it was it cut so close to the bone of you know, current issues and how there are actual considerations for using digital lightnesses these days and you know in hollywood. So.

34:59.56
Adam Godfrey
Just kind of interesting. Um, yeah I think it would make a cool ah you know, episode or movie though you know one day you know, maybe once the heat dies a little on this concept. Somebody's willing to pick it up and do something with it. Yeah yeah.

35:11.50
Michael David Wilson
Yeah, and that's the thing particularly with like the visual arts with movies and with Tv shows. It's not just about hitting on the right idea, but it's about hitting on the right idea at the right time and.

35:26.52
Adam Godfrey
Exactly up.

35:30.42
Michael David Wilson
You know there's been so many times where a story has come out but it's come out too early. It wasn't in the Zeitgeist store. There were too many controversial issues that meant we cannot put that out now. So. Yeah, fingers crossed. We'll be seeing that on the screen in the future but the world ain't ready for it yet.

35:53.99
Adam Godfrey
Right? It yeah to what you said there you know it's crazy how that works you know because some films that were flops. You know you know when they first came out. Don't really find their audience till years later you know, um, you know is like you said it's all about timing. So yeah. See.

36:12.20
Michael David Wilson
Yeah, and I mean you said early on you had people who were discouraging in terms of your path as a writer and I don't know if they actively discouraged you but in terms of things they said. About money and it being like a difficult career to pursue. Well I Wonder I mean you started off at an early age writing you then said that you returned to it seriously in 2015.

36:34.73
Adam Godfrey
This.

36:46.57
Adam Godfrey
I have.

36:51.28
Michael David Wilson
So I want to know what was the moment when you kind of abandoned it initially and then more importantly, what was it that got you back in the game.

37:04.90
Adam Godfrey
It probably initially just was it was something I was always interested in but I just kind of fell off of doing it I got out of practice and the more articles and stuff I would read that would you know, kind of speak to how hard the industry is and. You know people you know authors don't make any money and it's like hey ah I don't know do I waste my time doing that you know and so I think ah you know just with maturity. You know, growing into adulthood. You know you kind of ditch those. Um.

37:39.67
Adam Godfrey
Interest you know and and just kind of come into your own and and you say you screw it. You know I'm gonna do what I like regardless of money if it makes money you know I'll do it on this I had my career by that point you know, um I work in Cyber securityity and Stuff. So I said well I'll do this on the side and you know what? whatever comes up, it comes of it. You know, but if I Enjoy. What I do and you know inevitably that money will come So if it's meant to be if not whatever I still enjoy doing it because ah, um, and I think that was just kind of the turning point for me was eventually I didn't care what the world said or what other people thought because all that's just based on their. You know, subjective experiences and everything you know or opinions and it's not me, you know I haven't been there and tried that or done that you know I don't want to be an old man one day and say man I Wish I had really gone for it. You know and just want to go for It. You know we'll see what we'll we'll see what comes of it. But um.

38:33.88
Adam Godfrey
Yeah, so you know I Just I think I do think of all the lost time you know I could have been actually you know going for it. Sooner. You know at a younger age. But then I think I didn't have the life experience at that time to really create good writing but you know I feel like you know. My age now I'm um, what I've got to contribute is is more valuable than what I would have contributed then at a younger age so you know everything happens in its own time and this is the right time for me now. So yeah.

39:06.73
Michael David Wilson
Yeah, and I mean it might sound like a strange thing to say but I don't really think as a writer. There's any kind of wasted years but just because purely just being alive having life experience. Consuming art reading books watching Films These are old things that we put into like the the kind of inspiration part and that inform the art that we ultimately create So I mean even when you're not writing.

39:42.12
Adam Godfrey
Yes, yes.

39:42.58
Michael David Wilson
You're kind of writing if you see what I mean you're creating these experiences that you can then ultimately draw from.

39:47.90
Adam Godfrey
Yeah, absolutely. And yeah I was about to say the same thing. You know you don't have to be writing every day to be a writer you know, fifty sixty percent of the time is going to be brainstorming. You know none of that time is waste of time. Um, constantly I constantly have ideas running through my head and I don't sit down to write every single day but I'm I'm always thinking about it. My brain's always moving and trying to come up with that new twist or or what have you? So yeah, um, like you said you know you don't have to be writing you know life life everything you experience you know.

40:25.13
Adam Godfrey
You know goes toward that so that end product. So there's no wasted time. It's just everything will happen in our hour time when it's supposed to some.

40:30.72
Michael David Wilson
Yeah, yeah, and talking about experiences you mentioned briefly that you're in the air Force. So I'm guessing in terms of the timeline that was after your. School life and your education I mean it would wouldn't be duringring like high school just after the yeah for Summer break. But um, then presumably before the career in Cyber security.

40:55.49
Adam Godfrey
Um I made running.

41:05.45
Adam Godfrey
Yeah, so so I went into the air force. Um I did I t and and systems administration. You know, helped they call help desk support. Basically you know you're fixing computers and you know doing networking and stuff like that. So probably I think around probably around 2012 or 2013 is when I got into cybersecurity and I work on the the cyber risk management side of the business. What we do I deal in. Cyber security policies are regulations for the department of defense. So you know we'll we'll inspect the networks and make sure all the checks and balances are in place before they're authorized to be used in the operational fleet. Yeah, so and if they're not passing muster. You know. They're they're full of holes. You know? Yeah they've got to go back to the drawing board takes all this stuff patch it up before we authorize it for use. So yeah, and so so I'm I'm more on the policy side of of cybersecur. So I was telling Bob earlier is is pretty dry work but but whatever is none of the exciting stuff. But definitely highly administrative. Highly policy oriented on the security control side of business. Yeah, so that was yeah cyber security yeah took a turn into that around 2013 or so.

42:29.66
Michael David Wilson
And so what does your writing routine and your writing life look like I'm wondering how logistically you balance the day job with your creative work.

42:40.34
Adam Godfrey
Who oh my gosh man. Um, wherever I can fit it so have a wife you know we have 3 kids 3 girls. They're all young full of extracurricular activities and. I mean we are booked solid so it's hard unify in that time. So on our lunch break all right? if I'm you know taking one of them to you know one of their practices. You know one of their sports you know practices in the evening I'll sit there and write for an hour hour and a half. Maybe late at night you know so I kind of just working in wherever I can I don't really have a fixed schedule. It's just whenever I can get it in I try to do that. So yeah, maybe one day. Um, when that money may or may not come. You know eventually I could do it full time and have a. You know 8 hour shift each day where I can sit down and and put some real hours into it. But yeah for now I kind of take it where I can get it.

43:41.98
Michael David Wilson
Yeah, and in terms of beginning writing again in 2015 my understanding is that you wrote a novel called stimulus will will that the.

43:54.28
Adam Godfrey
Yeah I did.

43:59.56
Michael David Wilson
Initial story that you wrote kind of coming back into things.

44:04.50
Adam Godfrey
Ah, try to think I guess it was or at least that was my real go at it. You know I can't remember I probably dabbled around and some other stuff. But so I wrote that book stimulus. That was never published so it's so right now and I did have representation at the time you know and I was working with him and he was a great agent. You know we just didn't really see eye I eye on. We didn't have a common vision for the book I don't think so it wasn't really working in that regard and so you know i. I could not mold my product to his vision. It just wasn't working I tried you know, but I took his advice you know hey it needs to go here. It needs to be this or that. Okay, yeah, yeah, you know and I'd write to it now that's not quite it but I wasn't feeling it you know like we talked about earlier if the passion's not there and whatever. That's the art of it. The passion wasn't in it. So this thing just got more and more convoluted as we went until finally I said you know I I think I need to put this down set this aside and I have another idea I wanted to work on and at the time that idea. That that idea actually turned out to be a book I just sold to sourcebook landmark in ah a 2 book deal. So that's my debut novel so that that will be coming out next year it's called body of water. Um, and that one really turned turned out to be something great. So I'm I'm looking forward to that coming out and that is a a.

45:34.67
Adam Godfrey
Very um, new original concept. So I'm looking to see looking forward to seeing how that's received out there but not to get ahead of myself here. So yeah I kind of set stimulus aside I worked on this other book. The body of water and sort of somewhere in between there I ended up writing narcissists and um. You know I pitched that to shortwave and and they quickly picked it up. Yeah, you know this would be great so that was my first real book publication with that novella and so that was definitely a great experience working with shortwa on that one. So. Kind of weird that one just kind of bloomed out of nowhere. You know, right in the middle you know I didn't see it coming. You know it was an idea that hit me one day and us yeah you know I think I'll you know see what comes with this. So I said down and I wrote it you know over a few months and it worked and um, yeah, so. 1 kind of cropped up. You know in the middle of those other two boats. Unexpectedly so was a nice surprise. Yeah music.

46:28.86
Michael David Wilson
Yeah, that's sometimes how it happens and I mean unfortunately there's no formula or there's no recipe for writing a great story and sometimes it will be a real slog of a times like Narcissus it'll just.

46:40.42
Adam Godfrey
Right.

46:48.44
Michael David Wilson
Come to you almost fully formed and your you writing and it'll be like Wow that that was good and then that and then the next one it might not necessarily be the same and it's like what where where did that magic Go What happened.

46:49.90
Adam Godfrey
Yeah, yeah, yeah, you know So what happened? Yeah yeah.

47:05.26
Bob Pastorella
Um I hate that it's like you nail something out and it's like all I'm ah get the next one and you know in three weeks later you're like fuck. What's the deal I did the other one so easy. This is turning into crap and usually it's because it's too convoluted. Yeah.

47:12.61
Adam Godfrey
Um, in the heart of yeah the Hardy you try right? Yeah, so.

47:14.36
Michael David Wilson
Yeah.

47:22.92
Bob Pastorella
Start throwing in everything but the kitchen sink and then you manage to get the kitchen sink in there too and it's like shit man this thing's way out of control now.

47:25.71
Adam Godfrey
Yeah, yeah, I felt like that happened with our first Book. You know I kept trying to add and adapt and I was like man this is not working it was getting worse and Worse. So Then this thing is looking really rough I'm gonna put this down. You know so. Yeah, between. So so between that book Narcissus and body of water I ended up finding new New representations. So um, in in I have 2 agents now so they've been great to work with. You know we do have a common vision.

48:02.78
Adam Godfrey
Stars are aligning. Finally you know with us So I'm excited to keep working with them. So yeah, they they represented that sale of body of water and I had already had narcissus so you know they picked that one up for uta to start shopping film rights Hopefully soon for that one. Really excited to see what comes with that So I kind of you know as I wrote narcisist I was picturing it on the screen. You know like I told you I grew up. You know, loving Films. You know it's It's kind of how I write you know I see it on the screen as I'm writing it. You know? and um, yeah, so I kind of always felt like that one would make a ah great Adaptation. You know, either you know.

48:40.67
Adam Godfrey
Fill more Tv show or something and we'll see what happens. But yeah.

48:45.79
Michael David Wilson
So I mean in terms of representation and literary agents. So I mean you said that you had an agent when you were writing stimulus you now have. Another agent. So did you stop working with the first agent and now you have 2 new agents or the 2 agents that you have the original and the new one I mean I want to find out a little bit about how. This so wax and your kind of representation.

49:22.45
Adam Godfrey
Ah, yeah, man. So so for the first agent so when I was querying stimulus you know and trying to find an agent for that one I had to have been I had to have put out in excess of you know, 200 query letters 200 submissions to different agents. You know over a year or so time frameme for that one and it's grueling. You know if you know when you finally find that agent that wants to work with you. It's like oh my god thank thank goodness you know? and so the thought of in to answer your question there. No, it's I'm no longer with that agent that first One um I as I mentioned he was a great agent. Um, we just didn't see eye to eye on the vision. So we we parted ways amicably and you know I had to go back into the query churches again for body of water and and and again I don't know if it was that many queries I put out but it probably wasn't far off from it. Along the way you can you kind of learn at least I did and I think a lot of authors out. There are probably the same way I don't know if you've experienced the same thing but um, you know you you put it out prematurely to too large of a group. You know and then you realize you know it really wasn't quite as policy as you should have been but you get 1 shot you know on submission so you've already blown it with those 20 or 30 agents you shot it out to the first time and so you go back and tweak it and you get feedback on that you know it starts coming in and it still wasn't as good as it should have been you you continuously edit. So.

50:48.75
Adam Godfrey
As this is going on over a year period or whatever in these batches. You know the numbers really start to add up until you finally start getting the full request and you're like okay now I'm on the right track here people are digging it I'm getting some solid responses so long story short. Yeah I finally landed on my agents now. You know Christy fletcher and and Kelly Caruses gave with uta so they loved it. Um, and in the rest is history with that. So both times you know during that agent journey. It was the longest period and it's so discouraging. You know you feel like man is it just me because. Especially being on either know Twitter or um, you know x as it's colon now or threads or you know, whatever else is out there. You know and you see all these other authors celebrating their victories constantly and and you forget that. You know this is really just these people's highlight reels. You know you're seeing the tip of iceberg you know the old iceberg analogy. You don't see everything under the surface that these people have been through. You know all the rejection they face the disappointments and you feel like you're kind of a one-off, you know it's like man. Why why? Why is it taking me so long. You know nobody likes what I'm writing and you know. But you realize later you know I came be realize later man. We we all fight the same battles here and um, you know you just don't people don't have any idea they don't see what's under the surface. What you've been through and none of it comes easily so for anybody listening out there just keep at it.

52:19.40
Adam Godfrey
You're you're on the right track. We all hit the same stumbling points and and feel the same pains and you know same woes, you know, just keep at it that that's the key just keep going the people that stop. They're the ones that that don't make it so you keep going, you'll eventually get there. But um. Yeah, it's It's rough man. It's a rough tre and trying to find representation and out there and I see a lot of people you know speaking to that like I'm thinking about giving up and it is funny. You know a lot of well-known authors now who who are more recently. Well-known I remember seeing them. You know. Not a year or two ago talking about how they were ready to quit. They were so discouraged but they're just thriving out there now and I'm seeing them as special guests at conferences and things you know, signing books and stuff. It's like it's good to see you know.

53:05.47
Michael David Wilson
Yeah, and I think sometimes people can put literary agents on a pedestal and so you know that they can see somebody on social media. They've got a literary agent and then they.

53:11.51
Adam Godfrey
Oil.

53:23.15
Michael David Wilson
Person who sees it They don't and then they feel kind of discouraged and like oh what's going on. But I think it's important to remember that no literary agent is better than a bad literary agent and you know ah a bad literary agent doesn't even mean.

53:25.18
Adam Godfrey
And.

53:32.55
Adam Godfrey
Oh oh absolutely? yeah.

53:41.69
Michael David Wilson
That they're bad at that job I mean they could be a bad fit for you. Theyre not the right match. You need somebody who you can yell with and so yeah and we see people like Gwendolyn keist. For example, she does not have a literary agent.

53:45.70
Adam Godfrey
No. Now.

54:01.36
Michael David Wilson
She's doing pretty well, she's getting some pretty big deals with Simon and houster. So it's important to remember that there are many different paths and ways of going about this. But I mean I wonder with that in mind. Obviously you you had.

54:02.31
Adam Godfrey
Um, does very well. Yes.

54:11.80
Adam Godfrey
Yes, yes.

54:20.50
Michael David Wilson
A literary agent where you didn't quite have the same vision so you decided it was better to part ways. What was it with your new representation that made you think yes this is the fit. This is the right agency for me.

54:25.72
Adam Godfrey
You have 4

54:37.18
Adam Godfrey
Well primarily it and I do want to touch on what you just said, they're excellent point you know and I don't want to Imply. You know you all you have to have an agent Certainly there's all different Paths. You don't have to have a literary agent people self-ublish they indieublish you know, whatever, it's whatever. Whatever's best for the author you know at end of the day. So but as far as yeah, ah I think it was just the editorial vision when we start brainstorming as to they would they read the book Here's our thoughts. Love it here's where what we think would make it extra great and they started laying out some thoughts as to where further development was needed whether it be characterization or you know adding this plot point here shift this. And it all made total sense to me I could totally get on board with that and instantly I can see a path ahead where before you know I'm hearing the ideas but it's not it doesn't Gll with my style ums not something I would write not ah a. Attack it or whatever I would employ or you know app Plot I would even venture to approach you know, just it wasn't me I Just knew it I felt it you know for a while you know though I tried to make it work and clearly at the end of day. It.

56:02.80
Adam Godfrey
It wasn't working so and I think he felt that too but within this particular case. Yeah, we hit it all right off the bat. You know we had a common vision so that became readily apparent. So that's really all it was you know, just hearing each other out and I said yeah you know I could get on board with that that sounds good. There was no apprehension there.

56:20.35
Michael David Wilson
And for anybody who is currently looking for representation I mean based on all your experience are there any dos or don'ts that you could advise people of.

56:21.46
Adam Godfrey
Of your opinion.

56:36.55
Adam Godfrey
Yes, do not send out to too large of an agent pool in the initial stages of query leverage the feedback toward the small pool. You know first toward edits to enhance. A manuscript before you start sending it out to others because like I mentioned earlier, you'll only get 1 shot and um, you can't send. You can't requery an agent you know make it count so that's a big thing. You know a big lesson are on the hard way. You know, mainly with that first book you know I was like. Okay, I'm ready. You know let's you know I researched agents. Of course you know, tailored. That's another thing tailor your query letters. Don't do this mass submission. You want to find out what the agents are looking for. You know what appeals to them what kind of work they represent be knowledgeable of the authors they represent. And tailor your query letters to you know to those specific agents you know and that goes a long way in itself. But once you've done that yeah, don't assemble. You know a twenty thirty agent you know list and just blast it out everybody at once because then your shot's blown 20 or 30 agents wide and then all your best prospects are. Gone on that very early draft of the manuscript that you thought was ready but come to find out was still very rough you know because I know personally I thought it was set and good to go. Okay I wrote a book you know like let's do it now. There is a whole lot of editing left on that and so yeah, learn that the hard way.

58:05.10
Adam Godfrey
So I mean I think those are the the biggest things don't Harass agents over social media or any other means other than you know their their approved submission process and there's submission guidelines. Yeah, those probably my my biggest tidbits you know I could offer right there of advice.

58:27.21
Michael David Wilson
And even if going through official means don't harass them. You know don't harass them in general.

58:31.70
Adam Godfrey
Yeah, yeah, nobody appreciates them and I think yeah you know and I yeah I never personally harassed agents but you know I think we've all heard the stories of people harassing agents out there where you see the agents reporting on on social media like oh can you believe I just got this.

58:44.53
Michael David Wilson
Yeah.

58:50.51
Adam Godfrey
There's a lot of I think pressure built up and frustrations with various authors. You know who just get they're over it. You know and they might have been trying so long they might have spent so long at the query trenches and they just feel disrespected and they start lashing out at totally the wrong people. You know? and so. Probably easy for some people to do and they just need to keep in mind you know it's just the process be patient, waited out and those agents are dealing with thousands of queries. So takes time.