TIH 530: Max Booth III and Michael David Wilson on The Last Haunt and House of Bad Memories

Michael David Wilson (00:00:28): Welcome to This is Horror, a podcast for readers, writers, and creators. I'm Michael David Wilson, and every episode I chat with the world's best writers about writing life lessons, creativity, and much more. Now, today is a crossover episode I recorded with Max Booth Iii of Ghoulish podcast. So what you're hearing will air on both this as Horror and Ghoulish. You see, as of a few days ago, I released my debut novel House of Bad Memories and in around a week, max will release his brand new book, the Last Haunt, both House of Bad Memories and the Last Haunt are available via Cemetery Gates Media. So we decided to team up and the conversation you're about to hear is the result. But before we get into it, a quick advert break,

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Michael David Wilson (00:02:32): Okay, with that said, here it is. It is Max Booth third on. This is Horror though, max. Let's talk about your forthcoming book, the Last Haunt. So what inspired this book?

Max Booth III (00:02:53): Just a bunch of deep diving into extreme haunted house attractions like Russ Mckamey and the Blackout Haunted House and a bunch of little extreme haunted houses that I'm blanking on with the name now, but I think the most well-known one to the public is probably a Russ Mckamey's haunted house because he's such an odd human and he's fun to talk about. So the book isn't based on him or anyone specifically, it's just inspired by some of the ideas and topics these extreme haunted houses bring up.

Michael David Wilson (00:03:34): Yeah, and I mean, when did you first discover Russ Mckamey or when did you first discover these kind of haunted house extreme attractions for want of better phrasing?

Max Booth III (00:03:51): I think it was a Netflix documentary called Haunting Haunt Guilds. I'm blanking on the name now. It has haunt in the title, but it was a documentary about people who make those haunted house attractions. Not all the attractions featured in the doc little extreme, but rest like the extreme example they provided. And it just seemed really interesting, I guess, and possibly not really ethical maybe. So I just began Googling and reading about him and watching videos people had made and eventually discovering the became email exposed Facebook group, which is a secret Facebook group of people who despise this man to death that they want to see his business done. Just so lots of just reading and piling information and trying to decide what was true about the attraction and what was an illusion that McKamey had made to advertise the haunted house attraction. We can get into this later on, but when people who don't know a lot about McKamey talk about McKamey, they just say, oh, he's that guy who is nuts and will cut you open and do all types of crazy devices to your body and there's nothing you could do about it.

(00:05:32): And he's crazy. Well, I mean, the crazy pill is probably true, but in my research I kind have to schedule, he doesn't even have a haunted house.

Michael David Wilson (00:05:46): Yeah, yeah. It's really interesting what these is different documentaries and YouTube videos and theories on him because obviously you've got some people who are like, this is the most extreme haunt to ever exist. And then you've got other people who are like, look, it's not a manor. This is a room in this guy's house. There is no manor. We're exposing it. And

Max Booth III (00:06:15): So back, he used to have the haunt in San Diego, California, and he did have an actual haunt in San Diego, but for unexplained reasons, he packed up and moved everything to Tennessee and that was when it went from being a haunt to being a boot camp basically.

(00:06:36): So now what it basically is, is he has people do exercises in his front like sit-ups and push-ups. And the most he might do is he'll blindfold you and spray you in the face until you tap out, it'll die. But he doesn't have decorations. He doesn't have actuals. Most haunted house attractions, they have people in costume who help out. He doesn't really have those now he used to and San Diego. And one bit of speculation is he left due to owing taxes in San Diego, but I mean that's just speculation. I don't know what's true or not. Explain the few things. Also, when he moved to San Diego, I mean when he moved from San Diego and set up in Tennessee, he announced this big prize, if you can make it through my haunted house, I'll give you $20,000, which does not exist. No one's ever even come close to winning. And if someone does come close to making it through, he'll basically call it quits. One famous example was this Marine who was doing it and rest was like, oh no, he's catching hypothermia. I got to pill this right now before you die. But it was obvious he wasn't going to give up. So that's why Russ gave up.

(00:08:11): I mean, it's such a vast topic that I don't even know what to focus on without a specific question. But before we continue talking about my book, we'll also promoting a book you wrote that's also coming out through the same press and the press is called Semitily Gates Media. I don't know much about this press to be honest. It's owned by a man named Joe Vils. Joe based out of, do you know,

Michael David Wilson (00:08:42): I believe United States? Yeah, definitely based in the United States. I thought you wanted more specific information, but that's okay. We don't need to give his address away on a podcast.

Max Booth III (00:08:55): What's his social security?

Michael David Wilson (00:08:59): Yeah, he's based in the us

Max Booth III (00:09:02): How did Bob Fuel's introduction to Semitele Gates Media? Because I think they might kind of be a new press, right?

Michael David Wilson (00:09:10): Well, I mean they've been about for a number of years now. I don't know exactly how many, but in my mind I feel like maybe about 2018, 2019. But I can tell you the first kind of professional interaction I had with them was when one of my short stories, Taka Taka Taka, which is based in Japan, it was submitted to a folklore, anthology stories from around the world, and that got accepted. And so that was the first publication and first proper interaction with Joe and Semitele Gates Media. But I knew of them before that, so it wasn't seeing the anthology code that made me first aware of them. I just think that, I'm trying to think what were the first books that made me aware of them?

Max Booth III (00:10:16): I think mine was six Rooms who wrote Six Rooms?

Michael David Wilson (00:10:19): Yeah, Gemma Ramour. I did. I did Wonder if it was Gemma, but not only was Joe and Semitele Gates Media putting out high quality books by people like Gemma Ramour and Paul, is it Paul Michael Anderson, or is that the director? I didn't know who's the really similarly named

Max Booth III (00:10:41): Directors Thomas Anderson. Yeah,

Michael David Wilson (00:10:43): In name by. Yeah, it is Paul Michael Anderson that is at your name. I know. I was going to tell people how he put out a book by the film director. He did not. It was Paul Michael.

Max Booth III (00:10:57): I've published Paul Michael Anderson, a book of his as well. And definitely we had that confusion a lot. We kept calling him Paul Thomas Anderson, and I've known Paul Michael Anderson since the beginning of my career. He accepted one of my very early professional sales rates, really is Phil Magazine. He was editing called Jmavu, which lasted three issues before going bankrupt.

Michael David Wilson (00:11:25): Dear, dear.

Max Booth III (00:11:25): Well, it happens.

Michael David Wilson (00:11:28): Yeah, well it happens a lot with magazines and well with small presses as well. Yeah, I think that, but now we're getting into territory where it's like, did we start complementing Paul Michael Anderson and now this is the shitting income, Paul Michael Anderson.

Max Booth III (00:11:51): He wasn't publishing it. In fact, the company that published it kind of fucked a few of us over by not paying people and they ended up folding not that long ago. Well, maybe it wasn't long ago. I have no concept of time because they're not treating people the way people should be treated. But enough about bad presses, Sam and Tilly Gates probably a good press. Julie's still out, right? Let's see how this, thank you. Tell me about the book you have coming out with them. I know I've read it once, but fill the audience sake.

Michael David Wilson (00:12:30): And seeing as you said, the jury is still out with Cemetery Gates Media. I mean, he paid me the advance very, very quickly and in full. So

Max Booth III (00:12:43): With blood money, we should say

Michael David Wilson (00:12:45): We don't know that. We're only speculating. We

Max Booth III (00:12:49): Don't not know that though.

Michael David Wilson (00:12:51): He didn't specify whether it was or wasn't blood money, the money was sent to me. I didn't ask as to where did you acquire this money from Sarah. It just went into the account, no questions asked. But how some bad memories. So I mean, the way that I've been pitching it is that it is funny. Games meets, this is England with a Rosemary's baby. Those are kind the comps. And in terms of what inspired it or where the idea came from, I mean initially this was a novella. Initially this was a novella that was going to be published by another press. And so it is very much a novel of two halves. And the first half it was influenced and tapped into I guess some childhood trauma and some unpleasant issues during my childhood. Yet Max is rubbing his hands together. He is like, oh, this is the good stuff. And much like the haunt in the last haunt, I decided, let's take that to the extreme. Let's take the childhood trauma and abuse even further and extrapolate what could have happened.

(00:14:32): But yeah, it was due to come out via a press. But then there were a few things that really minor things in fact, that I wasn't so happy about. And then I got the rights back. And then when I had the rights back, this was a year or so later, I could decide, well, what do I want to do with it now? And at that time, I mean as with any story that I write, and I think the same with you, I send the story to Ryan Lewis, a film agent, to see, okay, what does he think about this? And does he think it's something that he could potentially sell the film rights to? And whilst he enjoyed the original House of Bad Memories, because it is quite understated and very British in nature, it's pretty much single location, which of course can and for you did work to your advantage.

(00:15:39): But with mine, he couldn't quite see, okay, how is he going to pitch this? How is he going to sell it? And so I had that in the back of my mind and I was like, well, is there a way that I could expand a story and I wonder if in expanding it, would it make it more sellable for the screen? And so I kind of just mused over that idea. And then I came up with a way that I could expand it. And some of the things that happen in it, particularly a specific chapter, I thought, okay, so that will make it even less sellable because there's no way that they're going to film that. But at this point, I'd already fallen in love with the new idea. So I did expand it, but I arguably made it even harder to sell for screen. But it, that's obviously not the primary reason why we're writing books anyway. If that was the primary reason, then just write screenplays, write for the screen.

Max Booth III (00:16:52): I don't know. That's not the advice they give you now they say make it a book because no one's going to finance in the original screenplay. It has to be ip. That's fucking disgusting, I

Michael David Wilson (00:17:03): Think. Yeah, yeah. That is what they say. Yeah. So I suppose then that you're right, that what I've said is nonsense. If you wanted the right for the screen, in fact, some would advise to do is to write for the page and then to adapt it for the screen. Yes.

Max Booth III (00:17:28): So you've talked about things that have inspired the book, but what is the book about? How would you pitch it to somebody beyond compelling it to other books and movies? What's the premise?

Michael David Wilson (00:17:39): So I mean, this book is about Denny who is a new father. And so he's coming to grips with parenthood and he has had a very abusive relationship with his stepfather. And then he gets a call to find out that his stepfather has passed away simultaneously. He starts hallucinating his stepfather, but he's not entirely sure, wait, am I hallucinating him? Am I being haunted by him? So he is dealing with childhood trauma. He's dealing with a potential haunting. He's also navigating becoming a new parent. And there were kind of cracks in his marriage as well. So this is not a good time for Denny. He reluctantly goes down to his hometown and to attend the funeral primarily to support his mother, not because he wants anything to do with his stepfather. And then as he's in the hometown, both his loud-mouthed, obnoxious stepsister and a couple of his stepfather's associates, it is kind of obvious that his stepfather was involved in some sort of organised crime.

(00:19:12): They start interrogating him about the death of his stepfather and wondering if he may have had some involvement in it. So this guy's day just keeps getting worse and worse, all the things that he's having to deal with. And that is kind of the setup to the first half of the novel. And I don't want to say too much about the second half because then we'd be getting into spoiler territory, but the second half, it completely flips genre and things get a lot more intense. I mean, in the first half it is in intense in an almost kind of understated way. And then the second half it's like, oh, fuck out the window. And yeah, it's a lot more kind of visceral. And yeah, I would say it has changed genre. A lot of people have said they didn't expect a turn that it took. It may or may not take another turn and there could be an argument for it changing genre twice. So there's three different sub genres within the story. So hopefully that gives people a little bit more of an idea as to what it's about.

Max Booth III (00:20:41): I think it's exciting to have some type of big jump like that in the middle of a book. Just something will things vastly change from the expectations you might have constructed from everything else? I don't know if it happens a lot in books. It happened in a book. I'm trying to think of, I read recently you read it as well, you even had the guest on an episode. What was that called? It was

Michael David Wilson (00:21:09): You about

Max Booth III (00:21:16): In the title.

Michael David Wilson (00:21:18): Oh, are you talking about Hawk Mountain by Conor? I am.

Max Booth III (00:21:23): Yeah. That has a great tonal shift in the last field of it, I would say. It's fucking just so exciting and it knocks you off. You'll see, because you'll just not expecting it. And the way the rest of the book plays out is just, you could not predict that from what you read previously, I don't think.

Michael David Wilson (00:21:48): Right. Yeah. And I love it when that happens because I suppose the opposite is like nobody wants to read a book that is just completely formulaic and exactly where it's going. So these books that shift tone, that take you on an unexpected ride, for me that is more exciting fiction as I'm saying that maybe because you did this before with another comment that I made, I'm anticipating how you might completely argue against what I've said and be like, well, actually, some people, they do want to almost have a comfort read and they want to read something where they do know where it's going to a certain point. And to say that I would concede that, okay, that's a good counterpoint. Why are we even talking? If I'm anticipating what you're going to say in responding to it,

Max Booth III (00:22:58): I'll even talk at this point. Yeah, the majority of audiences do not want to be surprised. They want a template. It's why James Panelson is the best-selling author of all time. It's why like CSI and law No so popular. It's like those shows have a really specific template and what's going to happen, basically. And that's comforting because they don't have to be challenged. They know what's going to happen and that's what happens. And they could be satisfied with that. It's as creeps. You want something a little bit different, I think.

Michael David Wilson (00:23:33): Yeah, and I feel the same with films as well. I love the Kill List Change genre a couple of times. I love that the eighties film Miracle Mile effectively begins almost as if it's just a romance, and then it becomes an apocalyptic film. And as I recall almost, it's like there's a phone call and everything changes, and it's like just

Max Booth III (00:24:04): I

Michael David Wilson (00:24:04): Respect that. I love that

Max Booth III (00:24:07): He's walking past a phone booth and someone at the nuclear launch site, I almost said website, that's the site they call him trying to get somebody else. It's a wrong phone. As soon as that call happens, the movie vastly changes, but it also doesn't lose the romance aspect of it. It remains a romance, but now it's also an action movie, a dystopic movie almost. It's really fast-paced and thrilling.

Michael David Wilson (00:24:37): Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, in the UK we've got these long-standing soap operas like Eastenders and Coronation Street. I don't know if that means anything to I

Max Booth III (00:24:50): Know the titles.

Michael David Wilson (00:24:51): Yeah. Yeah. Obviously there's been a load of long-standing things in America. For some reason, sitcoms come to mind, sitcoms that now have ended things like friends and Seinfeld. But I think it would just be amazing if in any of these lung long-standing things after 10 years, they just decided, let's change genre. Let's have a zombie apocalypse just occur.

Max Booth III (00:25:23): Do you know that animated sitcom on Fx El Trill about The Spy? Do you know what I'm talking about?

Michael David Wilson (00:25:32): I know what you're talking about, and I, I've caught a few episodes just because I have friends that really enjoy the show. So sometimes when I'd go round to the house, there'd be an episode of Archie Ron, but I haven't sat down and watched a lot of it, but I guess you're about to tell me it does something like that.

Max Booth III (00:25:57): So the show is about a spy agency in the U.s on season five. They almost switched genres and location to be able selling cocaine in a different country fucking really jumped to a whole new type of show. And it still, it stopped being good, but that's a bad example. But it is an example of something like that happening with a sitcom. But yeah, imagine if Seinfeld season 17 suddenly began, it became hostile or something. What is the deal with all of these kids?

Michael David Wilson (00:26:42): But when that happened with art here, did they just do it for a season and then season six they came back as if it hadn't happened? Or did they just

Max Booth III (00:26:51): Change? I don't know. Yeah,

Michael David Wilson (00:26:53): You stopped. It was so bad you stopped watching. So you don't even know.

Max Booth III (00:26:57): Yeah, we made it a few episodes in and just kind of gave up.

Michael David Wilson (00:27:02): Yeah, no, I'll have to look into that. Did they just for season 6, 7, 8,

Max Booth III (00:27:09): Is the show still on?

Michael David Wilson (00:27:11): I know it's on Netflix, which is not

Max Booth III (00:27:15): It still going, what the fuck? Next year will be the 15th season. Oh my God. Wow.

Michael David Wilson (00:27:26): Yeah, it'll be interesting to see if the consensus is that season five got bad and then did they remedy it or did they just double down and continue? But rather than a speculating or what could have happened, we could literally watch or read up on what happened. So people can do that for themselves.

Max Booth III (00:27:50): Many people listening at home will just screaming at us right now. Avid fans of this show will just not happy with what I've said about season five.

Michael David Wilson (00:28:02): Yeah, yeah. And as I haven't seen it properly, I can't really disagree with you. I can't agree with you either. I just have to.

Max Booth III (00:28:12): It's just like a semitily is blood money. We don't know if it's blood money, but we can't say it's not.

Michael David Wilson (00:28:23): I mean, I guess I was going to say that's true. I mean, it's true. I highly doubt that it is blood money. There's nothing that, why am I wasting hair even?

Max Booth III (00:28:39): How did this book fall into the hands of Semitily gates?

Michael David Wilson (00:28:45): Okay, so to go back to what I was saying before when I decided to expand it into a novel so that you didn't exactly ask this, but I think it ties into the original question about what inspired it. So the kind of first half it was inspired or influenced by my childhood drama. And at the second half I wrote, after going through the most traumatic event of my adulthood, probably of my life, and that being my divorce and custody battle. So this entire book has been written in a very traumatic headspace, just like one half is a different kind of trauma that influenced it, or if not influenced and affected might be a better word. But then

Max Booth III (00:29:53): Do you think that helped with mental health writing, something like that? Was it therapeutic at

Michael David Wilson (00:30:00): Yeah, I think it was cathartic and therapeutic. And I think as well, it kind of benefited the story too. I was thinking about this the other day and how Dallas Mayor, Jack Ketchum spoke about writing from the wound. And I feel like actually not only writing about this traumatic experience, but being able to imbue it with these real emotions and feelings that I was having at the time, I think it added an authenticity to the fiction that when I had distance from it, I wouldn't have been able to give it. So yeah, it was not only therapeutic, but I think it benefited the fiction. And I know some people, they say don't write about traumatic things until you've got some distance from it. But for me, it feels like it's the opposite.

Max Booth III (00:31:08): Who says that?

Michael David Wilson (00:31:09): I've heard people say it.

Max Booth III (00:31:12): I'll believe you. Well,

Michael David Wilson (00:31:13): That's okay. We don't have to believe everything that people say. But yeah, I should look back to who said that because

Max Booth III (00:31:24): I've never heard anyone say that.

Michael David Wilson (00:31:27): I've heard people say it.

Max Booth III (00:31:30): I believe you now. I just haven't. Yeah, I mean, it's just like the blood money of cement really gates. I haven't heard it even say that, but that doesn't mean no one has said that.

Michael David Wilson (00:31:41): I'm pretty sure it was a British author, but that doesn't narrow it down. And maybe the only British author is myself. And then you're like, people say that and it's like, was it you? No, it wasn't me.

Max Booth III (00:31:53): Was it Clive? Barker?

Michael David Wilson (00:31:56): It was not Clive Barker, no. Yeah. But anyway, now I've completely forgot what was the original

Max Booth III (00:32:11): Question? Tell me how you got hooked up with Cement. Hill and Gates.

Michael David Wilson (00:32:17): Yeah. Yeah. So anyway, after completing the novel, after showing Ryan it, as always, I decided, and I say, I decided, but actually this was influenced by you. So yeah, we were talking about next steps in our career and looking into getting literary agents. And so I thought, well, so originally I remember mentioning this to Ryan and yeah, he said he wasn't sure that House of Bad Memories was the novel to kind of get a literary agent with. And so then I was looking into other options, but then pretty quickly I thought, well, why not? It's the novel that I have. Why not query some agents? The worst they can do is say no. And so I queried some agents. I mean, the short version would be that it didn't work out. So the worst happened, but nothing ventured, nothing gained. I mean, some things were gained. There were some agents that I know from interactions, well, I definitely wouldn't want to work with them.

Max Booth III (00:33:48): Who might that be, Michael?

Michael David Wilson (00:33:49): Well, absolutely no comment, but I think it would be unfair to say that we're aligned.

Max Booth III (00:33:59): Yeah, I think that's just the process when trying to find an agent is interacting and communicating with people who might be interested, but also having enough faith in yourself to make the decision of is this the right agent? Fill me. You made that decision with the small press that you have that ability to do that. Because I mean, at least when it comes to myself, early on in my career, I was so desperate just to get stuff out that I overlooked red flags and I just said, yes, let's do this. And I published with some companies I deeply regret. And I think that can be true for a lot of people who look into small press scene. So I think the way you went about it is pretty good.

Michael David Wilson (00:34:54): Yeah. Well, I'm never afraid to choose myself due to obviously some bad experiences. I've had some bad experiences that other people have had, and I think that sometimes writers, they'll put a publisher or an agent or some other arbitrary thing up on a pedestal and they'll inflate it. And really, you've got to respect yourself and respect the work. I mean, for me, with the literary agent querying, there were some interactions that I had that were very good and they were positive, and I liked the agents, but for whatever reason, it's like they enjoyed House of Bad Memories and they thought it was good, but it wasn't for them. And that's important. And it is the same with selling something for the screen. Ryan has said to me, it's not enough to have a good story. You need to have a great story. And not just a great story, but one with an obvious vision that he knows how to sell.

(00:36:08): So there's all sorts different factors that play into it. And yeah, there were some agents where it's like as we've published years where I withdrew, I don't, no, this isn't working for me. Yeah, there's too many red flags and things that I don't agree with. I have no confidence in this. And again, that accusing myself came into play with audiobooks as well. I was looking at different audiobook publishers. I got a couple of offers. Then when I was presented with the contract, the contract wasn't good enough. I went back and forth. I showed it to my lawyer, Wayne who, and yeah, it's like, you can't sign this. This is the wording that you would need. And if the Pub I found in some interactions, and I dunno if you have before too, but sometimes you even mentioned a lawyer and the publisher starts to have less interest in what's going on.

(00:37:35): Or even less than that, you start questioning dodgy contract terms. This is not about anyone specific because this has happened numerous times that suddenly they're not interested or they want to find a way out because you're calling them out on their sketchy terms. So anyway, the end result after numerous publishers being interested in the audiobook is that I'm putting it out independently via This's Horror. I've got a fantastic narrator, Aubrey Parsons, he has done the accent so authentically, and I'm delighted with that. But yeah, after really trying to see if there was an audiobook publisher, that would be a good match for me. I found out that actually the best matches for me to put this out myself. And that's kind of how I felt with the agents as well. I thought, you know what? I am a better fit. I'm kind of my own agent here.

(00:38:49): I'll query different people. I'll look into foreign rights, and maybe in the future, I mean probably in the future I will query agents again, but if I don't think they can do any more for me than I can do for myself, then of course I'm not going to take them on. I think it's a two-way interview when you're looking for an agent, they need to see if you are a good fit, but you need to see if they're a good fit, which is a very tangential way of getting back to the original question. So then after I'd rejected the agents, I reached out to Cemetery Gates Media about publishing House of Bad Memories. They thought that it was a good fit. They sent me a contract. I queried a few things instead of Joe saying, oh no, you queried the contract. That's it. It's over. Some publishers would, we responded, we negotiated. There was a deal, it was signed. There's a book coming out. Yeah, I mean, I look at who the potential publishers are and who do I think could do a better job than me putting this out on my own. And those are the publishers that I will work with. And yeah, I mean so far it's been a pretty positive experience with Cemetery, gates Media, they Paid me. Joe is receptive to edits and the quality particularly of the front cover in that matte finish is pretty good.

Max Booth III (00:40:43): And the only cost was the living with the ethics of profiting from the island of small dead children that Cemetery Gates,

Michael David Wilson (00:40:54): We dunno,

Max Booth III (00:40:56): We dunno. That keeps coming up.

Michael David Wilson (00:40:59): You keep bringing it back to,

Max Booth III (00:41:01): They seem to be really focused on the gates of a cemetery. You have to ask yourself what's inside that? What's

Michael David Wilson (00:41:10): Beyond the

Max Booth III (00:41:11): Gates? They want to keep locked. How I got involved with Cemetery Gates was they posted the front cover on social media and they were like, we have this cover, but no book. Someone should pitch us an idea. It was a photo of a kid in a mask in the woods. I already had the idea of doing a book about a haunted house attraction, and that to me seemed like it would be a good fit. So I sent them the pitch and they said, yes, we like this. We will contract you. But then they also accepted the different pitch by, I believe v Castro, and she ended up getting that specific couple, which is good because the book I ended up writing would not have fit that I originally had before I had the idea to pitch Semitilly Gates. I wanted to write this as a YA book, and it was going to be called Heck House, and it was going to be more about these kids trying to get a revenge on this extreme haunted haunt, a stream haunted house because one of the siblings died.

(00:42:22): And that's kind of still what happens in the last Haunt, but it's really vastly different now and the way it is set up. And that presented to you, I don't know at what point it kind of occurred to me that instead of, I don't think I pitched it as a ya, so I must have decided to make it no grimnup focused be feel pitching it to Semitilly Gates. But the book itself is presented as a series of interviews as if someone is conducting research and what happened at this extreme haunted house. And that was something I've wanted to do for a long time, but I never quite knew what would be the best project for that style. If you've read Chuck Palahniuk's Rant, that's a good example of a book like what I've written. Also Max Brooks's zombie books, I think World War

Michael David Wilson (00:43:20): Z.

Max Booth III (00:43:21): Yeah, it's the Bigfoot one. Also written like that.

Michael David Wilson (00:43:26): I'm not sure. I'm not sure

Max Booth III (00:43:28): I'm told that there's a book called Fantastic Land that's also written in this style, but I have not read Fantastic Land to confirm. But I think it's a fun way to mix up a narrative and just kind of make the reader doubt what believing, which is always cool. And yeah, I realise now I wasn't even asked a question, I just began talking, so I don't know where I'm going with this,

Michael David Wilson (00:43:56): But I had wanted to ask you about this kind of epistolary format and when you decided that was the vehicle, that was the mode to tell the story in. So yeah, it sounds like, I mean, it started off as a YA story and at that point it wasn't going to be in this format. And so

Max Booth III (00:44:20): No, it wasn't even going to be in the format. When I pitched to the Semitily Gates, I decided to switch it up several months after signing a contract because I think I found it difficult to get a way into the book. That's always the most difficult thing with my own writing is finding the best way to just get into it. Once I've gotten into the field Sceptical chapters and I've found my footing, it's usually pretty smooth from then on. But with this book, there were so many different things I wanted to tackle. I wanted to talk about how this haunted house even became a thing, but I also wanted to talk about what happened after the haunted house closed and so on. And the mill, I thought about it, the mill, I realised that this was the perfect opportunity to finally write my big interview book. And also I think I always thought when I would write one of these types of books, one of the main people being interviewed would be someone in prison. And I was able to use that idea to kind of branch off with the last Haunt by making someone in the last haunt in prison when they'll being interviewed.

Michael David Wilson (00:45:37): Yeah, yeah. I mean talking about having a difficulty getting the writing started, I mean, I've wanted to bring this up and this is a heavy topic that we're about to jump into, but I mean I know that when your mother died, it's been difficult for you to start stories to write, to really creatively get things done in that manner. If I'm overstepping, we can obviously cut any of this out, but I mean I want to know how you're doing in that respect. I mean this feels like, from what I understand, it's the first kind of lung story that you've written post the Death for Your Mother. I mean has, I dunno if cathartic is the right word here, but has that been liberating? Do you feel that you might be able to write other things easier now? How are you doing in that respect? I mean, how the hell are you doing personally as well? I mean, I don't think anyone has asked you this in an interview because when it comes to death and when it comes to trauma, people tend to want to tread carefully apart from me.

Max Booth III (00:47:15): It's all that blood money that's making you so brave. She passed in August and then September was a complete shit show because I had been back home to help my dad do a few things and that was a complete disaster. So no writing was done then obviously. But after I got home in I think October, maybe late September, the design to write was completely gone. I had forgotten how to, and actually a friend of mine who was pretty known in the Hill genre passed away in October, which was not too long after everything with my mom. And I had been friends with him for over a decade and we kind of both began around the same time. And I actually pitched this book the same week he passed away. I don't quite know what prompted me to just reach out and pitch a book, which is why this book is dedicated to him because it kind of made me go and do something.

(00:48:30): But I didn't really take into account the fact that I had no desire to write anything or quite remembered how to, which is why this book took a long time to write. And any, I mean beyond this book, I think I've written one shrill, why didn't you just leave anthology? I think that's the title of it. Yeah, I think it was a combo of grief, making it difficult to focus on my own writing. And also the fact that this type of book was just extremely difficult to write because I'm someone who loves writing dialogue and I kind of thought, oh, well, a book of just interviews will be fairly easy to write for me because it's all dialogue. But it turns out I only like writing dialogue when it's a conversation. So when in Milden One-Philson is speaking, you have that rhythm you can play with and people asking, people responding and so forth.

(00:49:31): But in this book, the Last Haunt, it's just one-philson at a time speaking in each section. So I quickly realised that I had maybe oval steps in what I thought my comfort zone was, and it took a long time to figure out how to do that. Also, I was writing it originally, I was trying to write it in a way that I found extremely difficult. Well, so the way the book is presented is you have 15 or 20 K fields. All of them have been interviewed by me basically about what happened at the Mckinley, which is the name of the event that the book is about. And instead of having chapter one, this is the interview with this kid or chapter two, I have everyone's responses kind of edited in and bouncing back and forth. So it creates what I hope is an interesting rhythm and flow of narrative. And when I feels writing this, I had a loose outline of what I wanted people to talk about and I was trying to write it the way the book was published. So I would do a paragraph of someone else responding. I found that so fucking difficult to keep bouncing between the cast I have eventually a month and a half ago.

(00:51:09): It dawned on me how much easier it would be if I just in a separate document interviewed each K till separately and then once all of the interviews were done, go back and edit each response. So it seemed natural. And once I did that, that was super fucking easy. So I think I was just kind of blocked by not quite conceiving of how to write this correctly. There's one of the main kill tools, name is a travel hand Wilson. He's the one in prison that's being interviewed. I came up with a list of questions to ask him directly because he's like the protagonist essentially. And that was like 15,000 builds to the book just of his roots, his answers, his evil views, and then everybody else. I kind of considered a side tool and I came up with a list of 10 questions I would want all of them to address. And that made it pretty easy to copy and paste the responses into the correct sections. And I would change up who would respond when depending on what type of information was revealed and just the length of the response as well.

Michael David Wilson (00:52:28): Yeah. And yeah, I was very curious as to how you actually did the writing. And to my mind, it made most sense to do the interview separately and then to kind of weave it together in some sort of tapestry. But

Max Booth III (00:52:47): I wish I had thought of that sooner.

Michael David Wilson (00:52:50): But I mean it works so well and it really replicates these film documentaries. I mean not just film, but real life documentaries on true crime. And they'll start off and there's a hook. They'll tell you there's been some sort of incident, but then we go back to the beginning and getting to know the Mckinley Manor and Mckinley himself, and it just really seemed to have the rhythm absolutely down. And so it is probably the nearest experience to reading one of these documentaries. It could have been the transcript.

Max Booth III (00:53:44): Alright, I need to mention as well, I mean for those listening who might be confused, there is a man named Gus Mckinley who might be loosely inspired by the book loosely. Very different though because the killer in my book is named Gus Mckinley. It's really different and in no way does that make me eligible for a lawsuit. I'm inspired by life in everything that is in existence essentially. But I've based a book on my own imagination on the entirely a fictional Gus mckinley. I just wanted to get that out, Phil.

Michael David Wilson (00:54:29): Yeah, well I mean that jumps into another direction I wanted to go at some point. So why not Now when we were speaking about abnormal statistics, your short story collection, you have a number of stories that are loosely based on real life events. You can't sue him. It's fiction.

Max Booth III (00:54:56): And the subjects of those stories are all dead.

Michael David Wilson (00:54:59): Yeah, I just remember a comment you made to me at some point. We're not going to repeat,

Max Booth III (00:55:08): I hope. Okay,

Michael David Wilson (00:55:09): Well, I mean I'm not going to repeat. I can't control what you do or don't say

Max Booth III (00:55:15): You can and post though.

Michael David Wilson (00:55:18): That is true actually. Yeah, but I mean when you are writing, this was something that came up in the previous conversation, but about kind of concerns in the legal concerns when writing things that are based on real life happenings and you didn't seem so concerned when it was short stories within a collection. However, now we've got a entire book.

Max Booth III (00:55:52): Well, we also have a book that's going to draw comparisons to a really social media active human with a rabid fan base of psychopaths.

(00:56:07): So Russ Mckavey, he has a Facebook page on a Facebook group as well, and he has thousands of fans. People love him, they watch his live streams of him just making people do crab walk with dog food bags on the laps and they just go, oh, this a cinema, I guess. I dunno exactly what's going on, Dale. Although, I mean I kind of know it's like a difficult to make certain claims without potentially being accused of, I dunno, libel maybe. I don't know. I'm not loyal. I'm not a judge. I'm just a man who wrote a book called Last Haunt that's completely, completely a hentrupool percent fiction and not based on anyone in real life named Russ.

Michael David Wilson (00:56:59): Yeah. So if it goes to court, they can play that. It's like you could not have been more unambiguous. He literally said it is not based on russ. So if he said it,

Max Booth III (00:57:13): Yeah, that's interesting. So if they do bring me in, I'll get a big white building, a dry erase mouthful, I'll write the name Russ Mckamey, and below that I'll write Gus Mckinley and the drill will go, ah, it's different. Also, my book takes place in Texas. There's no reference to San Diego, there's no reference to Tennessee. Really different also in real life, this Mckamey fella who's really different from the guy in my book, he often a prize of $20,000 in my book. The prize is I am Fucked.

Michael David Wilson (00:58:02): Very, very different. If you don't think that's different, then you try promising someone $20,000 and then you give them 15,000 and they're not going to be happy. So it

Max Booth III (00:58:16): Is, I just thought of something else as a key difference. So one of the big attractions at this haunted house of Resses is called Rat Race. And basically there's a tiny maze in its grass like a body can crawl through and you have to get to the end of the maze and then a bucket of rats will following the face. And the whole time he's spraying you in the face and essentially a waddle building you so you can't breathe. And my book falls into attraction called Sculpey and Scramble. Essentially it's a tiny maze in the guy's grass that you have to crawl through. And at the end a bucket of sculpey and supposedly falls at you the whole time. Gus Mckinley is spraying near with a hose.

Michael David Wilson (00:59:07): There are no rats in that scene. Completely different. It's just storytelling.

Max Booth III (00:59:14): Some would claim no rats exist at Mccamey Manor. I thought it was all ruse because no one's ever made it to the end of that, except one guy did, who's a famous Youtuber who's in the process of kind of destroying Russ, a guy named Reckless Ben. He did make it through and he was taking them to the haunts. He was finally taking him to this magical haunted house that supposedly is real when his camera battery died and oh well you can't do the haunt now. And perhaps sustainability similar to that in my book, but I'm perhaps not. Maybe you would just have to read the book. The Mill I talk the Mill I, I'd make a case against myself.

Michael David Wilson (01:00:02): Well, I mean another thing in terms of I guess playing with fact and fiction is all of the characters who are recounting their experiences, they have the name of someone in real life. That's true. It would appear personal friends and acquaintances of yours, even if the character in the book is vastly different from the actual person. So I mean

Max Booth III (01:00:37): We assume they all vastly different.

Michael David Wilson (01:00:42): So how did that part come about? And in terms of each character, did you just contact the person with the real life name and know how shaking his head?

Max Booth III (01:00:58): I hate coming up with names. I'm really lazy and I like naming people off of friends of mine. Then once I do name someone after someone I know, I love just making them as tailed real as possible. My friend John in it and how his skills jewel's name is kind of funny. Do you think I need to explain what the Midnight Society is?

Michael David Wilson (01:01:25): Yeah, because I think it is quite niche, even though, yeah,

Max Booth III (01:01:31): So it's a social media account I guess will they take Famous and they position them around like a campfire and via text they do conversations with these real life humans as fictional kill tools. They'll have Stephen King and Lovecraft fighting about something of campfire. I've been a kill tool a few times. Many of my friends have been, but for some reason, which is really funny to me, she made John a cop in it. He's really vastly and he was so upset when this happened. He's a friend of mine, he lives in Austin, so I see him in real life quite a bit. And the day that went live, we met up at some, as you would call it Michael, a pub.

(01:02:23): I'm translating myself so you understand. So we met up to this pub and he was really bummed. He was genuinely upset that people calling him a cop, but it was obviously a comedy thing. It wasn't serious. So when it was time to name the cop council in my book, it was like a week after this had happened and it seemed too good to pass up. So I made him the cop. And just to give you one funny anecdote, when I announced this book two weeks ago when I finished it and the book's already coming out, I don't know how this has happened, but that's what's happened. John commented saying, "'hell, yeah, this book is going to be Great.'. And I replied, "'i named the Kill Jill after You.'". And he was like, "'oh, I'm truly arnold.' that I sent him a screenshot. No, I said, "'you will not going to It.'. Then he dm'd me and said, "'it's a fucking cop. And Andrew is a little pal of mine, Andrew Hillbill. He said his feelings will crashed when he found out that he wasn't included in the book. So I quickly changed someone's name to Andrew and he happens to be one of the most awful people in the book. His intro section is talking about coming on some crazy lady's face. It's not pleasant text to read, but it's fun to make people you like tailable humans.

Michael David Wilson (01:03:54): And in terms of other people like Betty Rocksteady, who in this book, the character Betty Rocksteady is the biggest fan of Gus Mckinley? I mean, did everyone kind of just find out that they were in the book because you sent them a copy when it was done? Or did some people know during the writing that they were going to be included?

Max Booth III (01:04:26): Betty knew because we tend to talk every day and we'll usually provide updates in what we were writing. And she said she wanted to be in it. And I said, okay, I'm going to make you a tailable human. And she was like, fuck

Michael David Wilson (01:04:39): Yes.

Max Booth III (01:04:41): And I knew I wanted an obsessive maniac to do to be the mod of the Facebook group, the Mckinley male Facebook group. And she seemed like a good fit for that because full name is already fake sounding. So ah, mod of a Facebook group seems like a good fit for a fake sounding name.

Michael David Wilson (01:05:06): There you go.

Max Booth III (01:05:08): Yeah. Is this when you tell me that you'll crashed now the kid will chill in it.

Michael David Wilson (01:05:13): It's okay. I can withstand it and

Max Booth III (01:05:18): I'll tell you why. I almost did. You did. But I have my friend Miguel Miguel Miles, he's a and Miguel. It is Michael. I didn't want two of those names.

Michael David Wilson (01:05:32): You had to make a decision, Miguel or Michael. And it's like, well Miguel lives a hell of a lot nearer to you. So

Max Booth III (01:05:42): One of you guys,

Michael David Wilson (01:05:43): Well, he's just a better human being. He's just better. One

Max Booth III (01:05:45): Of you help out a lot at the bookshop I ran and one of you, you've never done a shift. I'll just say that. Yeah,

Michael David Wilson (01:05:54): Haven't even popped in. Absolute terrible friend

Max Booth III (01:05:58): Definition of a great friend.

Michael David Wilson (01:06:02): But I mean, to go back to what I was saying about you writing and having struggled writing previously, are you working on anything new now? And do you feel now that you've written the last haunt, do you think it might be easier for you to return to writing? Is it still difficult when you sit down to write to work on a project?

Max Booth III (01:06:34): No, I think I found my flow again. I think I had to get a difficult thing out of my system and not going to claim it's going to be easy going field because writings never easy. But I think I am back on track again. It's also just difficult finding time to write. We run a bookshop, we publish a lot of books every year and all that takes a lot of time. And you wake up with all these ideas or things you want to get done in the day, then the day is done and all you've managed to do is copy and paste information for a gift exchange and you'll disco.

(01:07:22): Yeah, I just sold a new pitch, I guess to Apocalypse book. I'm supposed to be writing them called I believe in Mistral Bones. So that's a book I need to begin writing. I am trying to finish a vampire novel that I was writing you before my mom passed and I have not touched it since because the premise was way too close to what was going on. And I found that strange. So the premise of the book is these three siblings, they've all live the pill basically, and they live different sections of Texas. And it begins with San Antonio getting a news headline, oh, a trending topic of the real vampire because these bodies have been discovered that drain the blood. And we follow all three of these breathless who read this trending topic and all three of them come to the conclusion, oh shit, mom's back from the dead.

(01:08:28): And they all go back to the hometown to regroup and figure out what to do. And I didn't see my family in five or six years. And when I went back to Indiana because my mom dying, I regrouped with my two siblings who the siblings in the book significantly based on, and it felt really Brazil like all this was happening. And I have not touched that book since. Mostly I think because I wanted to get the last haunt done and sent and I just had no issues writing the last haunt. And I anticipated, I mean it's odd because most of this book, the Last Haunt, it was written and the book is coming out in Knoxville. I kind of wrote most of it over a weekend after spending 11 months figuring out how to write it. But also I spent a lot of time researching, watching YouTube videos, reading interviews, watching documentaries. And I had a shit tonne of notes of research of what I wanted to recycle, but I wanted to interpret into my own original fiction that in no way resembles anything of real life. Yeah.

Michael David Wilson (01:09:55): Well it's so good that you've found your writing groove again or fingers crossed that you have.

(01:10:03): But I mean you mentioned that you have so many different things going on and your situation is reminding me of how my situation was. I think it was in about 2016 or so and I was going to say, I could tell that I was going to burn out. I effectively did burn out. I was teaching, I was podcasting, I was writing, I was the main person running, this is horror website. I was publishing, I was editing, and I just realised that there were too many things and something is going to give and one of those things is potentially my health. I mean it kind of did. And so I really had to reduce things to what do I actually want to do? What's the most important thing for me? And so that was when I handed over much of the day-to-Day running of the website to good old Bob.

(01:11:11): And I also stopped, this is horror publishing. The only thing I put out via this is horror publishing is my own things right now. I mean, it's not like a definitive rule that I'll never publish anyone else's stuff again, but that's just how I'm doing things now. And so the only things that really remained were my writing the podcast and then the day job just, it didn't remain because I was passionate about it. It just remained because it's like, well, I want some extra income to supplement the other things that I'm doing. So I mean for you, I think you've got even more on than I had back then. You've got the podcast you are writing, you're running a bookstore, which is insane to include in a list of things. It's just like a number. You've got the publishing with Ghoulish. I don't know how much freelance editing you're doing now. I feel that I'm missing out. Things that you're doing because you're doing so many things. I mean, you just launched a brand new Ghoulish website, so I mean

Max Booth III (01:12:31): You, it's going to be a free podcast, by the way.

Michael David Wilson (01:12:35): Yeah. So

Max Booth III (01:12:37): We also do the book Fest as well. Yeah,

Michael David Wilson (01:12:40): Yeah. So I mean, are you taking stock, are you trying to focus on what is important to you? And I mean you don't necessarily have to cut back or cut off some of the things you're doing that might be a good idea, but at least kind of front loading the day or your priorities with the stuff that's really important. I guess another way to put it would be if you could choose only two of those things to keep, which would you choose? What is most important for you?

Max Booth III (01:13:20): I wouldn't choose, I would refuse because I'm going to do it all.

Michael David Wilson (01:13:25): You have to in this hypothetical situation,

Max Booth III (01:13:28): Are you holding a gun against myself? Yes. Pull it. I don't want to live, this

Michael David Wilson (01:13:35): Is like a scene from, it's not. We need to do something that's like a scene from the host Indiana death song in the car. The dad is threatening to kill them all and the sun do it.

Max Booth III (01:13:56): I was thinking, I don't remember a gun being in that novella. I go through times where I am completely just exhausted and I don't want to do anything. And I go through moments where I have this almost mania of inspiration and just a desire to do as many cool projects as I can attempt to. And I think what is important to me, the long I do stuff like this, is creating a community of people who like spooky shit. Everything I do outside of maybe the writing with Ghoulish is crafting this community. We do the annual book fast and we have people come out every year now they repeat people basically. We have people coming to the bookshop and we do movie screenings every month and we do all these other events and people to know each other. These people who love philly, non-mainstream things, I would say. And it's a niche community. I think that's really important, at least to me, and cutting away something only limits that community from growing. So I wouldn't take away anything because all of it goes into making this community a little vibrant and alive. Besides maybe the writing on my own books. But I like writing. It's fun and we keep doing it.

(01:15:37): Maybe someone will pay me to write a screenplay again and then I won't be so stressed about money a little bit.

Michael David Wilson (01:15:45): Yeah. Yeah. And in terms of your writing, do you have a daily writing routine? Have you crafted some timeout where you're like, right, even if just like No. Okay.

Max Booth III (01:16:00): We've done a lot of episodes, I think, and every time you interview me I think I usually say my next thing I want to do is figure out a way to do a schedule. Have not done it yet. Yeah.

Michael David Wilson (01:16:13): Yeah. Alright, well we are coming to the end of the time that we have together for this episode. So I mean the last Haunt, it is available I believe on October. The twenty-Fourth House of Bad Memories is available October 13th. So we would obviously like it if you pre-order both of those books or if you're listening in the future, you can order them. There's no pre just order the books. Oh, post. Yeah. I dunno how the post order is. I mean that's when they something in the

Max Booth III (01:16:53): Post.

Michael David Wilson (01:16:54): It could be just yet something in the post. Do you have any final thoughts or things that we didn't cover that you want that this is horror and ghoulish audience to be aware of?

Max Booth III (01:17:09): We mentioned it briefly, but I had just launched a brand new website that's like the central hub of all things Ghoulish. Go to Ghoulish www dot ghoulish dot LIP. Rip. There's no calm heel. It's Rip. Go to that website and look around.

Michael David Wilson (01:17:32): All right.

Max Booth III (01:17:33): What about you

Michael David Wilson (01:17:34): In terms of final thoughts?

Max Booth III (01:17:38): Yeah, man,

Michael David Wilson (01:17:40): I mean really the final thought is to check out the books. If you like the idea of a loosely based on Russ Mckamey book, then you might want to check out the Last Horns if you like dialogue heavy books that change genre halfway through. If you think the pitch of Funny games meets, this is England. I don't even know how many people know this is England in the US but I feel that even hearing this is England, it might conjure up what this could be about. It could be based in England. Maybe that's why I primarily did this comp. It

Max Booth III (01:18:29): Sounds like what It's spiled the name for your podcast. This is Pen England.

Michael David Wilson (01:18:35): Yeah.

Max Booth III (01:18:36): Dot uk. Dot co.

Michael David Wilson (01:18:38): Yeah. Yeah. Go to, this is horror.co.uk if you want to find out more. This is horror stuff.

Max Booth III (01:18:46): And if you want us to build the Island of Children owned by San Matile Gates by both of your books.

Michael David Wilson (01:18:55): Yes indeed.

(01:19:00): Thank you so much for listening to Max Booth on This is Horror. Join us next time when we'll be unveiling the first in our House of Bad Memories Weekend podcast series. We recorded so many podcasts this past weekend and you can watch video versions right now, either at our YouTube channel at this is Horror podcast, or at patreon.com forward slash This is Horror speaking of Patreon. It is the best way to support this is horror. And you also get to submit questions to each and every interviewee. And coming up soon, we we'll be chatting to Matthew Holness Aka Garth Marenghi and Chuck Polenic Aka, the author of Fight Club. So if you want to hear those episodes before everyone else, and if you want to submit questions to each of them, become a patron of Patreon.com Forward slash This is horror.

Bob Pastorella (01:20:08): Everyone has a story about Post-Haste Manor. None of them in well, but that doesn't stop. The hopeful from hoping and a desperate from trying. This Halloween authors Jolie Tumajon and Carson Winner present Post-Haste Manor, the history and eulogy of one very haunted house as recounted by the artist poets, beloved family, pets, and mass murderers who have been touched by it. Raise a glass in celebration. Just don't linger for too long. Post-haste Manor out October 18th from Tenebrous Press. The Washington Post calls our Sheriff Knight, the novel by Mariana Enriquez, a masterpiece of supernatural horror. The New York Times calls the book An enchanting Shattering once-in-a-lifetime reading experience. And Kazuo Ishiguro, author of Never Let Me Go Calls Enriquez, the most exciting discovery I've made in fiction for some time. Our Sheriff Knight is available now.

Michael David Wilson (01:21:09): Well, that about does it for another episode. Please do by my debut novel House of Bad Memories. If you can, and I've podcasted so much over the weekend that kind of losing my voice. I dunno if you can even tell. But yeah, I really would like it if you could support a house of bad memories, shout about it on social media, leave a review on Amazon and all goodreads and just let people know about it. So until next time, for the House of Bad Memories Launch Podcast, where we also launch Silent Key by Laurel Hightower. Take care of yourselves, be good to one another, read horror, keep on writing, and have a great, great day.