In this podcast, Jonathan Janz talks about forgiveness, children, his biggest personal and professional changes in the last four years, and much more.
About Jonathan Janz
Jonathan Janz is the author of more than a dozen novels and numerous short stories. His books include Marla, The Siren and the Specter, and The Dismembered.
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Michael David Wilson 0:07
Welcome to This Is Horror Podcast for readers, writers and creators. I'm Michael David Wilson, and every episode alongside my co host, Bob Pastorella we chat with masters of horror, about writing, life lessons, creativity, and much more. And today's guest is Jonathan Jan's the author of books such as Marla, The Siren and the Spectre, and The Dismembered. And it has been four years since we spoke to Jonathan. But my goodness, was this a fascinating conversation over the course of three or four episodes, because yes, we spoke to Jonathan for that lung. We spoke for almost four hours, or you're about to hear it's not a conventional. This Is Horror Podcast conversation. And perhaps more than any other episode. This episode is not a conventional This Is Horror Podcast episode. We speak very little about writing. But we do go to some very personal places. Both Jonathan and I talk about some things that we have never spoken about on the podcast before or on any podcast before. And I think because we go to some painful places, this is going to be difficult listening for some of you. So I'm just making you aware of that from the outset. Now, I've said on a podcast before, that I'm going through something that I have been going through something for the past nearly 18 months now. And in this conversation with Jonathan, I get into that a little bit more. I don't delve into specifics, but I do provide a bit more of an insight as to why the last 18 months have been difficult for me. So you're going to hear that on the podcast. I'm being vulnerable. And in the podcast, we talk about forgiveness, whether that is forgiving ourselves, whether it is forgiving others whether it is cultivating forgiveness. We also jump into stoicism. We talk a little bit about the joy and the difficulties of having children. And we get into a lot lot more. So this is a heavy conversation. But hopefully it is going to be one that brings you value in some way. And then for the second and third part, we do get more into writing literary agents, and all other stuff that perhaps you are most familiar with this as our having. So if you're ready for a journey, in terms of personal lives in terms of vulnerability in terms of forgiveness, then it's happening. So before we jump in to this very personal conversation of Jonathan Jan's, let's have a little bit of an advert break.
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Michael David Wilson 5:01
Okay, well with that said, get ready. We're talking forgiveness. We're talking stoicism we are going to some vulnerable places. Because it is Jonathan Jan's on dare says horror. Jonathan, welcome back to This Is Horror.
Jonathan Janz 5:24
Thank you so much both of you. Thank you it has been it has been a little while but I am so happy to be back. It is exciting.
Michael David Wilson 5:32
Yeah, it's been four years. And yeah, seriously. Wow.
Jonathan Janz 5:40
That is wild dude.
Michael David Wilson 5:44
I know. I know. And, yeah, it's not been deliberate that we've had you off the show for so long. But it's so good to have you back. And as I mentioned to you off air, as I've alluded to, in previous episodes, the last couple of years haven't been great for me. And, I mean, there's been times where I've just wanted to have you back on the show. Because you instill so much positivity in any conversation you're in. And I have to say that, you know, interviewing you, back in 2018, has been one of the most positive experiences in the entire history of this as Hara, you've got such a great an optimistic way of looking at even the bleakest of situations. So, I mean, thank you for being that light in this world. And, yeah, I'm really excited to see the kinds of things that we delve into in this one.
Jonathan Janz 6:54
I don't know that we can get any better than what you just said. I think we're good. I mean, let's just let's just go ahead and end it now. Because I just feel like there's a there's an episode of Seinfeld, where George has like, a really wonderful first date. And he starts to think, well, I've got nowhere to go, but down now. And, and so you might as well break up, right. That's kind of how I feel. That was like the nicest, kindest introduction I've ever had. I loved it. So thank you. And I feel the same way about you guys. It was so much fun. A couple, you know, four years ago, I still don't believe was four years ago, I believe you. It's just really difficult to actually digest that it was four years ago. I just absolutely love. I love talking to you guys. It was so much fun. Such a wonderful enriching experience. And so I I'm very much looking forward to talking to you all again, it's gonna be a blast.
Michael David Wilson 7:47
Yeah, and I am gonna implore listeners do not turn off. Because despite what Jonathan has just said, I think we're gonna get even better. I think we're gonna have some higher points in this episode. So keep listening. I mean, talking about the past four years, what have been some of the biggest changes for you both personally and professionally?
Jonathan Janz 8:15
Yeah, I think so in the last four years, since we've talked, I have, I've gotten a different agent, I broke up with one agent, and then got a different agent. I started working a lot more with a guy that we both know, named Ryan Lewis, and Josh Malerman, as well. And those friendships, not only professionally, but I think more importantly, for me, those friendships have deepened, which has been really special. And then you've also professionally, I guess, there have been more things written some more things published and more things that will be published. I think, you know, us personally, and I think that the wildest thing there is, well, there have been a couple I mean, the negative thing would be that my, my grandpa was like my father figure he passed on in 2020. But an interesting thing, really, is that my kids continue to grow. And it's where this is pretty vulnerable, I guess. But I, I don't think I was doing this at the time. I, I don't know where I got this really awful idea that that pills were not good that it was the people should not take pills for anxiety or for whatever. I think that was just kind of the environment, not my family, but maybe the environment that I grew up in when I was younger, and I really resisted that. But I was having a lot of anxiety about my kids growing up and so I like literally, I was I was waking up at 4am and crying fairly consistently, just feeling like, you know, just feeling like that was I don't know it was it. really traumatic thing and I started to take, I finally went to a doctor for and got medication for it. And I still don't sleep well, but I'm been sleeping better than I ever have in my life, which is a big change for me personally. And that also helped me to stop looking at it so negatively. I don't know that it's really I don't think it's my nature normally to look at things negatively. But that's a pretty negative way to look at, you know, family is to just look at the passage of time, because there's so many other ways to look at it. So I'd say that that change, because I don't even know if we talked about that back in the day 2018. That was right in the thick of it. That was right when I was really struggling. And I continue to struggle up until like not that long ago. And so when I started to take, I just take the medication before bed, that's actually helped my mental health quite a bit my emotional health. It's nothing that I ever really showed to people. But it was something that I was really struggling with. So that's a bit of an overshare. So there we go. That sets a precedent for the night. It is oversharing night with Michael and Bob. And but there you go, there's, there's that that's a big change.
Michael David Wilson 11:13
Yeah, well, I think This Is Horror Podcast is all about the overshare. And he's real, intimate conversations. I mean, we're not afraid to go to those dark places. And I think in terms of the pills and the anxiety, it's interesting to hear that you had a resistance to taking pills. And it's actually something I can resonate a little bit with. So I think in terms of my own experience, so I may have mentioned this before on the podcast, but I used to have really bad arthritis to a point where I was taking 10 prescription pills a day I was injecting myself with methotrexate which in higher doses as an anti cancer drug that was once a week and I was on a path where I would have been in a wheelchair if I hadn't done something about it. I mean, this is over a decade ago now. But what I effectively did, I mean, I was searching online for different kinds of ways to get over this to find myself in a better way. Because I'm effectively being told by my doctors, well, this is just kind of how it is. And it's like well, taking 10 pills a day. Injecting myself once a week does not feel like a recipe for a long life. So I rejected that notion, I started researching and trying to find my own way out. And through the Paleo diet and essentially cutting gluten and heavily restricting sugar. I rather quickly went from being in agonizing pain and taking all these pills, to not having to take a single pill to feeling much better. And also just being in better physical shape as well, which was never the intention that was just a kind of welcome. Bonus. But I think after that happened, I realized you know what, what a superpower it can be to control your diet. And then to a lesser extent, the other three pillars of health, which would be fitness and physical exercise, sleep, and stress management. But I think at some point, you know, it almost became a little bit religious or it felt like, you know, these four things can fix any problem. So I think that plus the fact that I was terrified of being dependent on pharmaceuticals again, meant for a number of years, I had a real resistance to taking any pills. Now. I never had a problem with other people taking pills. Of course not you know, if people suffer from depression or mental health issues or anything, then of course, you've got to do what works for you. But for me, I didn't want to take their mind or you know that the nearest hour come it's like well, supplementing with some supplements with some some vitamins or with some kind of Mac macronutrients and things like that. But yeah, you know, the, I guess as the years have passed, it's like no, it's okay to have these health and diet and stress management, sleep, exercise. science principles. But sometimes you do use you use some pharmaceuticals in combination with this. It's okay to kind of take the medicine of old and the medicine of new. This is how we evolved. But yeah, I think particularly as for you, yeah, as people who can see the magic of nutrition and of exercising, it can make us who be reluctant to take pills. Or you can, you can tell yourself a lie. And this is a lie that I'm that I would tell myself and I would not, you know, say this about other people, I can be very hypocritical and harsh to myself in ways that I wouldn't be to others. But I could always say, you know, if I take the pill, it's easy, or it's cheating, or it's a lazy way out. It's like, no, it's just, you know, is it like, if, if I have to go to Tokyo, I'm like, Ah, if you get in the car, that's lazy, may walk it, walk it Take? Take a few days. Yeah, there's just some absurdity. I don't know if any of that kind of resonates with you, or if that gets to your own pill anxiety, or if it was a completely different journey for you?
Jonathan Janz 16:24
Well, I mean, yeah, I didn't undergo some of the facets of that, that you talked about. I didn't have the 10 types of medication. And because that, understandably, that would make you reticent to take anything if you've had that experience. And then that fear of it worsening, right? Getting, you know, injecting yourself and all that stuff, I can really see like, for me, and I liked what you said, like you had a double standard that was negative towards yourself. And that was the same way. It's like, I never judged other people. Because it like it made sense. Because there was that objectivity, I could see, okay, it helps that person, great. Good for that person, that person should do it. But when it came to myself, I think what my fear was was just, I would, I would perceive it as weakness in myself. It's failing. Use the word cheating. There was there was some of that like feeling of some of that disinclination to feel like I was cheating. And I think that I ever since you know, being a really little kid, I didn't want to appear weak. I never wanted people to perceive me as weak. And so I think that I always felt like if I did that, then that would somehow prove that I was weak, which is just complete just ridiculousness. But again, we're not that logical or fair with ourselves sometimes.
Michael David Wilson 17:46
Bob Pastorella 17:48
I've got all y'all beat. I take 10 medications a day. Real, very genetics. So I've got glaucoma, high blood pressure, which is hereditary runs in the family and diabetes, have been taking the allergy shots since I was four years old. And I quit taking allergy shots. And I don't know, it's my dad had that, that thing you're talking about Jonathan, taking taking medicine makes you weak. Yeah, he had that. He didn't try to pass it on to me or my sister. But, you know, I remember even going to school, when I was going to college, you know, studying psychology. And I discovered that my dad didn't actually believe in any of the things I was learning. Because to be called crazy was a weakness. And then, you know, if you had to take any type of medication, because you were crazy, you were weak. If somebody in the family was having some anxiety or something like that, and they had to take a pill, you know, he would he would mumble I can hear him last week. You know, and it's like, man, dude, you got to realize that there are chemical imbalances that happen within our bodies, you know, that that can change your behavior. And, and you don't have any control over it. It's not being weak. It's that the fact that you have no control. Now, when once he discovered the team's a diabetic, of course, his tune changed, because he was forced to take medication that he had never had take before. So you know, it's, I don't feel any weaker. I mean, shit, I'm, I'm the oldest person that my job. And I can work circles around the 20 year olds. And then they're amazed. They're like, you know, we have some new rookies, and they're all in their 20s, early 20s and they're never like going bops. 55 There's no way he's 55 years old. There's no way like, yeah, he's 55 and it's, you know, and and I'm like, you know, they didn't You see me know that bringing in my insulin and stuff like that, and I'm like, What's that? Like? Insulin? What's that for? I'm like, so I can stay alive and eat when I want to eat. When I want to eat, you know? No, like, you have to take that like, every day. I'm like, not every day. But when I need to do, what happens if you don't go in a coma and die, then you'll have to deal with that while you're at work.
Jonathan Janz 20:30
Your own good, right?
Bob Pastorella 20:32
Yeah, you know, but I mean, it's, it's like, I get that I never, I never experienced what you're talking about, you know, but I had it in my family. You know, it's, I don't know, it's like, we need to, we need to step away from that mindset of a weakness no matter what it is. There's no such thing is being weakness. If we're, if we're all human. And we're obviously imperfect, you know, we have to make the best out of what we have. And so man, when you when you when you were saying that, it just reminded me of my dad and went through that for years and years. And you know, but I made a promise that when he had to start taking medication, that I would never call him weak. Because I knew that, when in doubt, would have messed him up. Yeah. So yeah, he was, he was in bad enough shape as it was.
Jonathan Janz 21:26
Right. Now, that's absolutely I think we all we all to a degree are programmed by our environments. And that was the small town in which I grew up. That was it, it was like, it was such a ridiculously backward view of particularly what a man should be in what manhood was. That was my biological father, who, I mean, this is a really super personal and unpleasant thing. But this is just one little snapshot that will give you exactly where this where I think it comes from. And I'm not sitting here blaming anything that's wrong with me on on the town or on my biological father, whatever. But I, I can trace this particular one. But basically, I was I remember being in his lap when I was about three, three and a half, and he would like matches, and hold them up to my face, and then bring them closer and closer, and tell me not to move. And anytime I flinched. Anytime I moved, that was weakness, that was derision. That was that was more matches. And you know, sometimes he would hold them up and burn my mouth and all kinds of stuff. So, you know, I think I can trace it pretty directly to that, that that that that kind of behavior that he exhibited, was exactly what the entire area kind of exhibited, right? It was like so, Hort like everything negative that you hear about, like patriarchal societies. That was that was that. And honestly, I don't think that was that uncommon. I think that was kind of the time period, right? Like what the perception of of a man was, was just so bizarre and toxic and wrong. And so I just think that he probably got carried along with that. And bequeath that to me, and hopefully, I, hopefully I break that completely and never, ever exhibit any of that or ever try to make anybody around me feel that way in any way. Because obviously, it's pretty, pretty horrible.
Michael David Wilson 23:32
Yeah, yeah. And you said that was your biological father. So I guess from the wording, that would sort of imply that perhaps your main father figure was somebody different? So I mean, when did you last see your biological father? What was? Or is the relationship like with regard to him?
Jonathan Janz 23:56
Yeah, so So there are three figures. They're super fast or cycle theorem. But the biological father was one, he, my mom divorced him because of stuff like this. By the time I was like, five. So then that it was there was some connection and contact there, but it was always Rocky and horrible. And he passed away back in like, 2015. We hadn't spoken for about a quarter of a century. By the time he passed away, so there's, you know, that's actually there's a lot more there that we won't worry about unpacking now, but it was is it's a wild, a wild tale. My mom remarried when I was 11, to my stepfather and my former stepfather. She divorced him a couple of years ago, thank goodness. He was never physically abusive, but he was awful, just awful. And so thankful, finally divorced him after 36 years. He was just, you know, just not anyway, I wouldn't even he's not even worth my time to talk about but then the person and who is worth talking about? Is that guy I mentioned that that my grandma. It's funny, it's like all along, I had this miss this this perception that this misconception that there was a part of me lacking because I didn't have a dad in the house. And again, I was programmed to think that you had to have you know, a mother and a father and the dad had to play this role and had to had to teach you these things. And because I was programmed to think that way, I always felt like I was incomplete. And I always felt like I was lacking and was somehow not as good as the other my peers and stuff. And then, you know, it took me a long time to realize that my father figure my grandpa, who was such a regular fixture in my life, like we never went more than a few days without seeing each other. I even lived with my grandma and grandpa for periods of time. You know, he, he was better than then like 99.9% of dads in the history of dads like he. I've never heard of a dad that I think, Oh, I wish I would have had him instead of my grandpa. I think my grandpa puts them all to shame. That guy was just so awesome. Well, let's all say this. And then that we don't have to talk about my you know that stuff all night because I know, I know. You all want to go into the topics probably. But Grandpa, my grandma was married to him for like 60 years, she said that she had never seen him in a bad mood. All right, that's that that's something that most of us can't live up to that, right. In fact, that's pretty, that's a pretty unattainable goal. But it just shows you what a loving guy he was. Every time I saw me, it gave me a gigantic backbreaking hug. And tell me he loved me. And every time I said goodbye to him, same thing. And you know, kiss me on the cheek and it was so just loving, just so loving and so present and so supportive. So, you know, I made myself out to sound like this Dickensian. You know, poor, sad sack kid with a rough life. But honestly, I my mom was awesome. My grandma and grandpa. And you know, I even had an aunt so I had, I had four stable, loving, amazing people around me at all times, where, you know, a lot of people with with supposedly stable homes don't really have, you know, a 10th of that. So I really had a wonderful childhood for the most part and my Grandpa, I miss him like crazy. But man, what a great guy. He was. He was a veteran. And this is Veterans Day. So Happy Veterans Day, grandpa, wherever you are. Why? No, I think I know where he is. But I'll shut up now. Y'all go ahead. Ah,
Michael David Wilson 27:37
beautiful way to end that segment. And I mean, this is exactly what we were talking about off air when we're talking about gravitating towards the positive rather than fixating on the negative. I mean, and unfortunately, to some extent, both will exist in everyone's life. And I think, you know, the fact that you had at these four really positive role models and figures certainly doesn't, you know, undermine that there were some negative and some horrible and some traumatic things that you had had to endure or, you know, had to doesn't even sound right. But you had no choice in the matter, unfortunately. And I mean, so often in life, we, we have that option, we can either fixate on the positive or we can fixate on the negative. And, yeah, the positive, that can be much harder. But I think most of us, in fact, all of us are stronger than we probably realize we are. It's always difficult, you know, to talk about these things, without it. Always sounding condescending, or negative or belittling people who have to deal with these demons. It's always a tough balance in in wording something like this, because it's not to negate that it is a battle. But I mean, the real message is, if you're in that battle, don't give up look for the light. And even if you just see a little glimmer, that's enough, you know, one day at a time, one minute at a time.
Jonathan Janz 29:30
That's right. I believe that, you know, I think anybody who listens to you, to you and to Bob, I think people who listen to you for 10 minutes, can understand how genuine that is. And obviously, you're sensitive to the suffering of others. I don't think anybody would ever for one moment question that. But I think what you said is absolutely right, because and that I think that also that that motivates us, hopefully, to try to bring that light as much as we can to other people when you know to try to understand And, you know, rather than condemned to try to love rather than hate, I just, you know, because we can be part of that glow. And somebody needs it man, you know, you both have suffered before you know that you need it. Sometimes I need it. Sometimes we need that glow from other people. So man whenever we can provide it, that's, that's what we absolutely should do.
Michael David Wilson 30:22
Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, throughout the course of this conversation, as well as talking about your books, I want to talk about faith, I want to talk about your very personal issues and battles, as is, of course, the nature of the vast majority of This Is Horror, Podcast conversations. And I wasn't planning on going this direction. So early, but it seems to be where we've arrived at. So I mean, I wonder how do you think we go about cultivating forgiveness? And also, what is the difference between forgiveness and not allowing ourselves to be walked all over?
Jonathan Janz 31:08
Oh, wow, that second one is tough. That is such a tough one, right? Because it's so easily for to spill into that where our good natures are weaponized and used against us. So that that's, that's honestly a line. I don't know if I can even articulate and it's a line I don't even know if I can recognize sometimes, because that is that is a challenge. That first part when you talk about forgiveness, I really think it's so hard. It's so hard to forgive, it's so hard. You know, in sometimes people do wrong us. And I think in those cases, it's it's really understandable and human, to hold on to that pain and to be angry about it. I think that I think, you know, this is sound this sounds so you know, okay, so I think this is where art starts to play a role. I think art can have can, it can bring so many wonderful things into our life, but part of it can be healing. This show this does, I don't think anybody would, would ever confuse this with the deepest, most profound show ever written. But I love the show. It's called Cobra Kai, and watching that show with my son and my two daughters. And it really is helped me, there's a character and then in Johnny Lawrence, if you've ever seen the Karate Kid, he is the villain of the Karate Kid. But he's also kind of the hero slash antihero of Cobra Kai. And that's I think that's the heart of that show, is to see that character, to see how he is changed to see why he went astray why he was the way he was, and then how he's trying to become better. I'm not saying that my biological dad was Johnny Lawrence. But I, I here's what's weird, man. I feel like if I had seen that show before my dad passed away, I probably would have reached out to him. And obviously that chance is gone. Now. I stand by my decision to keep him away from my kids. For the most part, but, but he was not like, it's not like he was fully formed, he sprouted out of the ground into this person who was abusive to his son. Right? He was somehow something shaped him into that. This is again, pretty personal. But his his dad, my grandpa on my dad's side, had horrible experiences in the war in World War Two, both grandpa's were in the war. But that grandpa was in the war, dealt with alcoholism afterward depression, and took his own life. When my when my biological dad, I think I was like a baby, when that happened. And you know, so I think that had a major effect on my biological dad, when his dad took his own life. And I again, it's not linear, I realize it's not like connecting the dots, this this this and, and this excuses this, and this makes that okay? I'm not saying that. But I'm saying that he was a person and person, you know, people, people go through things. And it's really easy for me to just perceive my biological data, Satan. I think it's a lot, probably more. I think it's fair. I think it's probably more productive, to look at him as a human, who went through things, and then maybe made some wrong turnings or wrong decisions or had wrong attitudes. But that came from somewhere. And I really, is I look back now, I perceive him more because he was 21 when he had me, right. I mean, I'm not saying I would have been that way at 21 as a dad, but oh my gosh, 21 is a dad. I owe him I would have been so ill suited. I feel ill suited. Now. As a dad, sometimes. I can't imagine how overwhelmed I would have been in age 21. So I look back at him and I just I realized he's, you know, he wasn't meant for that. Certainly not at that time. He wasn't meant to be a dad. He felt trapped. He felt a I agree he was reeling from the suicide of his own dad. And I just feel like I can either try to understand him a little bit, or I can hate him. And I hated him for a lot of years. Now, I think I try harder to understand him. And I think I do. To a degree, I think I understand some of the reasons why he was the way he was. And I feel some, I feel a little sympathy, honestly, for him, even though I disagree with some of the things he did. I don't know. And I think that's, I just think that's probably the better way to approach it, at least for me, I'm not telling other people to do that. But for me, I think that's the law that that leads to more a better emotional health for me, that leads to some healing for me, anyway,
Michael David Wilson 35:47
yeah. So much here that resonates with me. And when thinking about people who have wronged me in my childhood and beyond, and it's like having that empathy and looking, what is it that shaped them? What is it that, you know, happened to them, for them to become that person, and it doesn't excuse, bad actions, but it does help paint a narrative and an understanding. And, yeah, again, as we've for you, it's just, it's just helped me, I guess, just understand the picture a little bit better, because I don't think, you know, this world is painted in black and white, there are all sorts of colors, there are all sorts of shapes. And I think the more empathy we have the, you know, the closer we become, to getting along or to peace, so it's just kind of understanding why people behave in the way that they do or why they hold the perspectives and opinions that they do, even if we disagree with them completely. And I think understanding is the key really, in this world. And I don't believe that anybody is born, like truly evil. I just don't think that that is the case. Now. I think that can be arguments if we like delve into the science, that there are people who can be born with a more kind of sociopathic gene, I think that is a thing. But then there are products of the environment that kind of can shape the way in which they might go. And I don't think any child is inherently evil. And for me, once I've kind of understood that it's helped me to do my best to if not empathize them to understand people, I suppose I empathize might have been the wrong word, initially, because he you know, it might mean that I almost relate to the actions it doesn't mean I relate, it just means I can understand why what happened happened, while still completely condoning the actions and behavior. Right. Right. Definitely. Now on Yeah. On the topic of forgiveness, how do we forgive ourselves? Also, how do we forgive ourselves for poor actions? If others don't? And should we forgive ourselves? If I was down? Is it is it our place to do so?
Jonathan Janz 38:52
That's a man, you're going deep. I love it, though. I think that that's one of the hardest things to do is to forgive oneself. Because we, I think that, you know, for those of us who do try to care about other people who do try to feel what they feel and understand them, that means that we have a greater understanding of how pain feels when it's inflicted. And no matter how kind we try to be no matter how considerate we all make mistakes, we do we are it is the it is the human condition to screw up. And we all do the nicest people in the world screw up sometimes, and they say thoughtless things, or they or they make selfish decisions. And then when you have done one of those things, sometimes maybe consciously, often unconsciously, I think then you realize because you know what it feels like to hurt. And you know, you realize that you're the author of that pain for someone else. I think that's a really, really difficult thing to deal with. It's a really difficult thing. The process, and then an even harder thing to actually get to a place where you let it go and forgive yourself. And you know, you talked about others forgiving you that that helps. But it doesn't go all the way, there's still that extra step. And that's actually a place where that I haven't, like achieved. i This is just a stupid example. But I, it's another place where the medication helps because for the longest time for every morning when I would shower, every shower, I would there would be this stroboscopic flicker of mistakes that I've made in my life over and over them Did they just assaulted me, like that spray of hot water? It would be it would be those images assaulting me every mistake, and that would be every morning of my life. And then the medication has actually helped that a lot. Not that I don't ever replay it now, but I used to replay it every morning. And they still hit me at weird times. I remember when I was coaching girls basketball, there was a really amazing human being she was on my team. She was a superb human great kid. She just didn't play or a lot because she wasn't our most talented kid. We're having a really bad game. She she went in, she made two turnovers in like 10 seconds. And it was right before half. And halftime. I was like ranting and raving. And I'm like in you, you this other kid. I'm like you, you need to do better with this. And I looked at this girl, and I said and you I can't play you. I can't play if you're gonna throw the ball away like that. And then I went on. And even as I said it, it's like I pulled out like in a cinematic way. And I looked at myself, I'm like you're a horrible human being for saying that to this amazing, sweet, hardworking kid. How dare you even at the moment, I said it. I knew how awful it was. And I apologize. I apologized to her after the game. I apologized. I've apologized to her. We're friends on Facebook, we still talk sometimes. I've apologized to her probably three or four times just private message. This is I mean, guys, this was 2006. I think that this happened. But I've apologized multiple times, just because I just I'm still so angry at myself for letting my competitiveness and my frustration and my temper boil over and saying to her, I can't play you. You can't turn the ball or whatever. It's just so it was so awful. And she didn't deserve it. And so I haven't forgiven myself for that. And she's Forgive me, she forgave me. She probably forgave me in the moment because she's such an amazing human being like heart of gold. Brilliant, wonderful, mine wonderful kid. She probably forgave me as soon as the words out of my mouth because because in the sum of our time together, I was really good to her. I treated her super well. I worked super hard to be a good coach for her and a good teacher for her. I had her in class, we had a wonderful relationship. I'm I'm still friends with the parents. So I'm sure she probably forgave me right away. And anytime I brought it up since then it's like I can almost hear the laughter in her voice. Coach, let it go let it go. But still, for me, I'm like you are such a prick. What's wrong with you? How dare you say that to that kid. So I think that forgiving ourselves might be the highest mountain to climb. And if you if you if you to figure it out, tell me because I still haven't the medication helps me not linger on it as much. But I still haven't.
Michael David Wilson 43:20
I would say in response to that. I mean, in terms of my opinion of you in terms of everyone who talks about Jonathan Jan's, I mean, you're one of the most loving, kindest, most compassionate people, not just in the genre, but on the planet. You're always doing the best that you can in each moment. And I mean, I want to know why you can't forgive yourself for this. But I mean, I kind of think I know the answer. And it's something that a lot of us deal with anyway, where your standards are too high and for whatever reason, you're, you're almost expecting perfection from yourself. But we know the As humans, we are inherently flawed we know that we fuck up we know that we make mistakes. And you know in that moment something took over. And as you said yourself almost seconds later your true nature the real Jonathan gents the real Craig that I know you are snapped you back to reality and course corrected and told you this was not the right thing to do. And this happens throughout our lives, you know, we we will snap or something will happen. And then, you know, we apologize when we can do hopefully as we get older and as has been the pattern for me, that time between action and apologizing, it's a lot quicker now than it was when I was younger. And I just think we continue to improve, we continue to get a little bit better. But you can't put perfection as the standard that you expect of yourself. This happened in 2006, you acknowledge that it wasn't the best way to behave. you've apologized to the person in question, she has forgiven you, everyone who thinks that you're an amazing person. I think you owe it to yourself to forgive yourself. And I just wish that there was something I could do that would allow that to happen, because I know what it's like to be kept up to be haunted by your mistakes to wake up in the night. And to remember something that you did a decade two decades ago, and to hate yourself and to berate yourself. But when you look at it logically, and you step away, you know that it's not right, you know that you wouldn't do that to another person. So why do we do it to ourselves, and we need to stop and I wish, I wish I could do that for you. I wish I could give you a bloody big hug now. Because you've put yourself through that pain. And I know that if the student is listening, then she wouldn't want you to either and, and you are loved. And sometimes you just gotta love yourself a little bit more.
Jonathan Janz 46:55
Well, I appreciate that, brother. Thanks. Well, your loved two. And that was I appreciate it. That's that was touching. Like, that sounds like a worn expression. But it's very true. It was, and I do appreciate it.
Michael David Wilson 47:14
Please, please, please consider forgiving yourself, please. News upon it. Please think about your character and and don't let those demons that I know will creep in and will be like, Oh, well, what about the time you did that? Oh, you haven't told Michael about that little indiscretion or that moment of anger? Look, look at the overall character. Remember that you're inherently flawed. That is the design unfortunately of humans. Yes, ma'am. Just know that you're doing your best. And please consider forgiving yourself.
Jonathan Janz 47:56
Well, thank you, brother. I appreciate that. But Bob, you said you related to that to sounds like Michael Shear. Does you relate to that as well?
Bob Pastorella 48:04
It's, you know, I mean, I think I think a small part of it. Is that that old school Catholic upbringing, you know, and we must make a penance, which is no like a, I guess, a pretty word for punishment. And, you know, to me, I think that, that sometimes that forgiving ourselves rids us of a punishment that we've come to not enjoy, but get we've gotten used to. And it's a familiar feeling. And in a weird way, it's like to do away with that it's a change that some people, you know, don't want to acknowledge, you know, I suffered and still do from punishing myself because of mistakes I've made. And some of the, some of the punishments are so silly. You know, it's like, I forgave myself one of my punishments this year. And, and so, I mean, it's not not to get into like real heavy duty details and things like that. So you just kind of give me an idea how silly it is, is I forgave myself of one of my punishments, and now I can wear a watch. So we'll just leave it at that, but that's how silly these things can be. And how they, like Michael said, they're like demons in your head. Yeah. And you have to, you know, so I come from a long line of my own doing of beating myself up over stuff. You know, I did something, you know. 10 And now 12 years ago, that was pretty horrific. And people people got hurt. And two people got hurt and one person has forgiven me and the other person has not. And so you know, talking about how, how can I forgive myself when someone else won't forgive me? You know, that's it's a, it's a constant. It's a constant battle. And we, you know, because we want to change and we want to, we should want to change, we should want to become better people. So the I'm like, well, micro said, we're striving for just perfection that doesn't exist anyway, within our head. It's part of that vicious cycle. So, you know, it's. And I think that that, you know, there's a real arrogant way of looking at, it's like, well, you know, what, I'm going to forgive myself, you know what, that guy won't forgive me his loss. But he, he has, he has lost some things. Right? No, that's, that's the bitter reality of it. Man,
Michael David Wilson 51:11
I think on the topic of forgiveness, it reminds me that I, a few years back was dealing with something that had happened in my childhood, and I was holding on to resentment and anger about this particular situation, and behavior. And kind of what I wanted to be able to move on, was to have some sort of apology, or admission from the person who had wronged me that what they had done was not okay. That was all I really wanted. But it just wasn't, it wasn't forthcoming. And I spoke to a member of my family about this and about what had happened. And they said to me, you know, your own peace cannot be contingent on the actions of someone else. If I want to forgive this person, then I can forgive them. But I should not allow my own happiness to be controlled by how another person does or does not behave. And that revelation was very freeing for me to realize that, you know, I have the power to forgive on my own, but I can't control what another person does, and I can't expect it. of them. I think to with this particular incident, and person, the person is very kind of private, and the type of person who to admit to wrongdoings would almost make it real in their mind. But if they don't admit, then it almost means it didn't happen. It's a very old school kind of way of looking at it. And I can say with reference to that, that, you know, I have forgiven them. And things are a lot better now. And I think that whilst it hasn't, there hasn't been an explicit apology. I think through actions and conversations, there has been an implicit acknowledgement of what happened. But we, yeah, the big takeaway is, of course, what I started with, which is do not let your own piece be contingent on the actions or inactions of another passion. Hmm,
Jonathan Janz 53:57
that makes sense. Well, Bob did what what do you think about that? Does that like Does that resonate with you?
Bob Pastorella 54:03
Oh, yeah. I mean, it's men forgiveness is is is such a multifaceted thing. I, I've gone through like long periods of my time holding grudges on people. And I learned from a really, really good friend who told me, she said that you don't really have to hold these grudges. You just, you know, you can let them go. That doesn't mean that you have to be friends with anyone. Quit being miserable, and cut them from your life. And that that has served me well. Especially if the friendship that I was extending before being betrayed was not reciprocated. So and, you know, there are people like there's people in my family that that, and I love everyone in my family, I love them all with all of my heart. But I don't like them. So there's some people I do not like. And, and I used to wrestle with that. And I don't wrestle with that anymore, because I don't like being miserable. And I seem to think that they, unfortunately, are petty and love, misery, misery loves company. So, you know, it's but you know, the power of forgiveness is strong, it helps, it helps us. I don't think it necessarily helps other people. I think it's designed to help us to help us move on. And, and that's, you know, that's really, you know, to me, that's what it's all about. You know, like, like I said, I do there's, there's someone in this world who I did something to who will probably never forgive me. And, you know, I can I can choose to make that a crutch. R, I can tell myself, hey, you know, what, it's okay. You did you did. You, you've you've taken things and done what you could do for that person. And you have to just move on.
Michael David Wilson 56:32
Yeah. Yeah. And I think, you know, relating to that we, we cannot unfortunately, revise the past, whatever has happened, has happened. And all you can do is you can shape your future actions. That, that really is what it comes down to.
Bob Pastorella 57:00
Right are very true.
Michael David Wilson 57:05
And I mean, and a sense it does bring to mind, a stoic quote from Seneca, where he says, but life is very short and anxious for those who forget the past. neglect the present, and fear the future.
Jonathan Janz 57:27
Hmm. And that hits. That's a good thing to remember. Man, that's a good thing to remember.
Michael David Wilson 57:36
Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, Pete, people know that these This Is Horror conversations are wide. But at this point, and probably about 40 minutes ago, you just embrace the fact that part one of this conversation is about the incredibly personal. We have not really jumped in to the books yet. So I mean, I promise for our listeners that that will see it here in part two, don't don't worry about that. But I do think from the feedback that we get that people appreciate us going in these directions, that there will be a warning as it were, the intro to the first half this this is the personal part of the catch up with Jan's if you just wanted the books, then part two is the one for you. I mean, of course, you said that. year you had a lot of this anxiety because of your kids continuing to grow because of the passage of time. Have you been able to pinpoint or to Muse upon? What is it specifically about that? That has been such a source of sadness for you?
Jonathan Janz 59:02
Yeah, I think that it's, there's got to be I mean, it's, it's all born of love for them. But there has to be a little bit of selfishness in there too. Because, you know, I, I feel like they're all three going to be happy. They're all three. I'm not saying they're perfect. Obviously, they all have their challenges, just like we all do, but I think they're all three on very good paths and have I really have faith and trust in the fact that they're going to have really good lives. I think that what it boils down to and maybe this sounds selfish, I don't know. It's, it's also love to but it's like I I mean, I love my wife so much. And so So basically, if I had I'm not gonna rank my favorite people, but I have four people that are my favorite people, right, and that they're tied for number one, it's my wife and my three kids are tied for number one, and I But the love that you have for a child is very unique. And it was like when I, I didn't know that I was incomplete. First of all, like my wife, I'm so much better with her than I ever was alone. So she definitely made me more complete. And so I guess that that part happened when I was 30. But then when I was 31, we had our son. And then I think that was it. I'm not saying that I'm complete as far as a finished prod, prod product. I'm a great guy. I'm not saying that. But I'm just saying that I didn't realize how incomplete I was until we had our son. And then of course, our two daughters. And I just, it's this indescribable love that I felt, and I just remember holding him in the hospital, and weeping. I just, I couldn't I couldn't describe I just, I had never imagined that I could feel that way. And never imagined that I could have that that much desire to protect that much just sheer joy to be close to that much. Those those feelings of inadequacy, like I'm not, I don't deserve you, you're too amazing. But like that moment, like in the moment, I felt that on some level, I started to be afraid to lose it, I started to be afraid of not having this precious, amazing person with me. And of course, I feel the same way about my two daughters. And, again, that sounds selfish or clingy or whatever. But it's just it's born of just this intense, incredible love, where you feel like your life has reached this, this place that you never thought it could or would you didn't know it existed without them. And then now that you know this love now that you know this closeness, now that you know, this completeness, you don't want to ever be without it. And you don't want to even be distanced from it. Because like, even like last night, my middle child jewel, and I spent time with each one of the three, but I was just thinking last night, Jewel plays that Wordle game, whatever that is with the five words. And so we just take them to she gets on her phone, and we lie there together on the couch. Or like last night it was we're lying up here in my bed. And you know, and like, we were just looking at her phone trying to guess the words. And it was so much fun. Oh my gosh, that was so much fun. And I just I think that there's that whatever, they talked about a design flaw, there's that piece of me that just loves that so much that I never want it to go away. And I know at some point, right, she's gonna she's gonna go away to college, and then, you know, probably find a significant other and all that stuff. And then and I want that for her. Of course, I want that for her. I want that with all my being for her. I just want to be a part of it. I just want to be, I just want to be with her too. And, and I the thing is my grandpa talked about him. I know he felt the same way. Because he he was always supportive. But I remember there was a time, I never moved away from him very far, like the farthest away we ever lived was like a half hour. And I remember there was a time that I was talking about going to grad school, like on the East Coast. I live here in the Midwest. And he he wasn't like he wasn't outwardly protesting, but he got quiet. And I just sensed that something was amiss. And I don't think I ever really realized that what it was until I had my own kids. I'm like, oh, that's what he was feeling. He's just sad. He was sad. He didn't want me to go away, because we have so much fun together. Anyway, I guess I probably sound simplistic and selfish. But those are kind of the feelings I have, or at least part of them.
Michael David Wilson 1:04:01
Yeah. Yeah, I resonate so much with what you're saying. And then something that I want to say but I'm not. I I'm not sure about saying it on air, but I'm going to say it and then I'll see how I feel when it comes to editing. But I mean, the moment that my daughter was born, that was the absolute best moment of my life. I felt such a happiness and such a love that I didn't even realize I was capable of feeling and it was really incredible. And I know I've always been cognizant of not taking Have a single moment with her for granted. And as people know, because I've mentioned it before, a couple of years ago, me and my Aunt Sue, I have my daughter with we split. And then 17 months ago I saw her for the last time and I remember the night that I was with her. And she was lying in bed next to me. I gave her a hug and I kissed her head. And I don't never take a moment like this for granted. Because one time something that you do with your child or with anyone is gonna be the last time you're on how was the last time I saw her? Fucking
Jonathan Janz 1:06:13
Sorry, we don't be sorry, man. We love you, Michael. We love you brother. It's the truest thing in the world. And what you're saying, man, it's the most the core, this thing that you feel deep in the core of your soul. That's where that coming from that love that you have for is this elemental thing. Right? This thing that just all consuming, more powerful than I think it's more powerful than any negative emotion in the universe that love that you're talking. I just I wish I could hug you right now. Man. Thank you. Even the way you describe it, that's exactly how like if someone were to write it, that's how they would write it. You talked about kissing your head. Right? That's exactly what you do. Just cherishing. It's just pure love. Pure untextured by any negative thing. It's just pure love. So it's the it's the most beautiful thing. I think in the universe. What you describe that moment, or is your lying next year? I don't think there's anything pure or more wonderful than that. Hmm. Yeah.
Michael David Wilson 1:07:39
I had an error if I'm keeping in. As we go into it. Before I was incapable of finishing my sentence.
Bob Pastorella 1:07:52
I thought I thought it was real.
Michael David Wilson 1:08:01
definitely real. Oh, yeah.
Bob Pastorella 1:08:03
I mean, I don't have any children. But, you know, this whole thing, it chokes me up. And that's for all. You know, that's not even the right word. It's just, I don't know.
Jonathan Janz 1:08:27
I think it's, yeah, I think it's one of the hardest things that anybody could ever have to go through. I think that, you know, when we truly, deeply, unconditionally love somebody, like you obviously love her. You know, I think that that, I think, you there's, there's just no, there's no way that there's no way to fake that there's no way to mitigate those feelings. And, you know, I, you feel how you feel, you know, and I'm sure that you're, you know, I thought, you know, when you talked about it, it's just, you know, it's it's one of the most painful things anybody could express, but it's also one of the most beautiful things that anybody could express. Because, you know, there are so many people who, who honestly, I think they show by their actions that they don't feel that way. You know, they shouldn't feel that way. But not everybody feels that way. You know, there are plenty of people who that that part is like missing, or that part is maybe blunted or incomplete. Or maybe their own their self love is greater than their love that their than their capacity to love somebody else. But like that kind of just deep, beautiful love that you have for her. I think that is that's that's because of who you are. That's because of your heart. Because you've got and I've known this for a while. I mean this from 2018 You've got a beautiful heart. And that just shows I mean, it's like clearly she had As you know, she is a piece of you she is a piece of your heart and your soul. That always will be, always will be.
Michael David Wilson 1:10:10
Yeah, and I mean life and love is messy. It's complicated. I've not shared on air that I haven't seen my daughter for, for 17 months. That's all I am willing at this stage to say about that. Of course, I miss her every day, of course, I think about her every day. And, you know, in a way, I'm so glad that I had that absolute clarity of thought on that day. I mean, there's something poetic about it really that I do not take any moment for granted because it might be the last time and then for that captor it, it happened to be and of course i i live in hope that I will see her again, we will, we will find out. But whatever happens, I've got you Yeah, for years have beautiful moments and memories with her. And whatever happens. I'm, I'm here for her. Yeah. So if, if I don't see her for a long time, then then I'm here. I'm I'm easy to find. So we will see what happens. But you know, everything. Everything that we've discussed in the podcasts prior to this is completely true. You know, I think we just need to act with more empathy and with more love and when things happen. Most people are trying their best. As flawed, as it might seem as flawed as the actions might seem, and a lot of us we we have pain or we're afraid and we're all trying our best. That's all I can really say about him. Yeah. Well, I
Jonathan Janz 1:12:30
I wish we're in the same country right now. This is this is one of those moments where we need to be at a convention together. You need to be in Williamsburg with us and we need to be sitting around and so I can give you a backbreaking here. Man. Well, I just I that I really believe you know, we both know that those the feelings you're describing are eternal. And they're gonna be there and like, your feelings are there. And I believe, I don't know anything. But I believe that that that will end up becoming a better situation.
Michael David Wilson 1:13:14
Yeah. Yeah. So for people listening, don't take any moment or any person for granted. You know, hug and kiss those that you love. A human. They're on board with that. Like, I don't know, what's next for me. And I give him a kiss on the forehead if you don't make sure he's okay with that for us. But yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, just don't take anyone for granted. Forgive quick, let things go be short to lose. Is it short to lose your temper do I mean don't lose your temper a lot. I don't know, words. Coming out, as we get towards the end,
Bob Pastorella 1:14:00
gives me a long list of things to work on.
Michael David Wilson 1:14:05
It's not meant to be homework.
Bob Pastorella 1:14:13
I don't know. No, that's, that's, I think that's my new my new thing that I need to really work on as I lose my temper a lot. And especially at work is like, you know, some of the stuff that we have to do is mind numbing, you have to do it multiple times. It's like, why doesn't this work? You know, it can get frustrating. And there's been some we've had some trying times, and I've had lost my temper. I'm sure I piss people off. And okay, I'm sorry. I mean, I really am. But yeah. Frustration can make you very short tempered. Yes. Yeah.
Michael David Wilson 1:14:53
Yeah, yes. I just think as I said before, it's getting that little bit better. You know, we've each day and you know, knowing that you're trying your best and being kind to yourself going easy on yourself. Right? Yeah, I appreciate for the listeners that this has probably not been the like easiest podcast episodes to listen to there's been a distinct lack of deck Job's really we needed Gemma more about life I can draw in the action, the sand and stuff like that. And maybe I can just or the audio by that. But yeah, I do hope that despite the fact that we've spoken about some incredibly deep and dark and personal topics that you're still going away with a message of love and a message of positivity.
Jonathan Janz 1:15:55
Absolutely. Well, I think that I think the darkness accentuates the light. I mean, you know, if you can take in, I just listen to you, Michael. It's really, I mean, it's one of those. It's a word that's gonna, I hate the way it sounds. But it's, it's sincere, and you know, I'm being sincere, but it's it really is inspiring. Because, you know, like, everybody, we everybody goes through things. Everybody goes through challenges, but the challenge you're describing is not one that I think most people have to endure, or, or can even begin to fathom how difficult it is, you know, and I just, you still like it, when I talked to you in 2018. There's this light that shone in your voice and in your attitude, and it is undimmed. It is completely unchanged from from what it was. And that's really rather remarkable. I think, just just like a modicum of what you've been through, would be enough to completely douse the light in many, many, many, many people. And you know, in you would be totally justified in any bitterness or frustration or negative. And I'm sure you feel negative things. Sometimes, obviously, you're a person, you're not a robot, of course you feel negative things sometimes. But I do think your global viewpoint is still one of positivity, one of love, one of empathy. And I think that's really extraordinary and wonderful. And, you know, if I were listening to this, just coming to this podcast for the first time I'd be, I'd be inspired, I'm inspired, and I'm in I'm in it. So if I were just listening, it'd be even more so. Right?
Michael David Wilson 1:17:46
Yeah. Yeah. Well, I appreciate that. And all I can say is that I'm doing my best. And I, you know, I certainly don't want to kind of ever put myself up as like a figure for people to aspire to be like, and any kind of positive traits of me, you know, it's taken work to cultivate that over the years. It's taken recognizing flaws of myself, I've messed up so many times, you know, I've done things that I'm not especially proud of, I kind of have those nightmares and knows echoes of mistakes of the past much like you described earlier. And so, you know, who I am today is the kind of result of decades of trying to self improve trying to be a better person. And it doesn't mean that I haven't messed up like I have messed up I've made plenty of mistakes. But I just tried to be a better person every day at a time and yeah, there's some people who are gonna think that I am there's other people who are not gonna think that I am and like I said before, you know, we can't have our own happiness or our own peace be contingent on others that's kind of got to come from within. I was actually saying to I said to my girlfriend the other day, I said, you know, I'm, I'm sorry, if ever like I, you know, angry or negative or lose my temper about something and she looked at me and she was like, of all the time we've been together. That has not happened once and absolutely blew that blew my mind because like, this is what I've been working on. For years, and you know, I have people from my past who would, who would say the opposite who would forever Oh, so it's kind of hate and negativity against me. But if if a person who I've been with over a year of my life has said like, Okay, well, you've not done, you've basically not lost your temper or be negative and all of that time, then I can feel like, well, whatever has happened in the past, it sounds like I'm slowly getting towards becoming the person I would like to become. I don't say that as like some weird kind of boast or anything like now I'm always baffled by that.
Jonathan Janz 1:20:48
There's nothing self aggrandizing in any of what you said, or any of your attitude. I think that would be the last thing. Right. Like, it's just this complete sincerity and humility that I that I sense from you. But I think that you did, even even though that one fact is complimentary toward you. I think that it is absolutely a sincere and true and, you know, if anybody would, would know you well, it's an individual that we're talking about who's been with you, you know, all this time. And I think that the fact that the fact that her, I think her testimony, her experience, I think that, that that should be pretty validating for you. I think that should show you exactly how you've been how you conduct yourself and how you treat others. I mean, I think that's, I think that's about as clear a statement as to your characters anyone could ever have.
Michael David Wilson 1:21:51
Yeah, and I guess the takeaway that I want listeners to have and a takeaway for you as well, personally, based on the coach comment, so we are gonna sometimes come back to that. And that takeaway is the sometimes the negative way in which we can see your past but or perceive ourselves is not the way that others see us. And, you know, a timely reminder, for us to be kind to ourselves to treat ourself with the kindness that we treat others what we would treat others.
Jonathan Janz 1:22:32
Absolutely. Absolutely, my friend.
Michael David Wilson 1:22:38
Thank you so much for listening to the podcast with Jonathan ganz. And I'm a little nervous to have put that out there. I have deliberately not spoken about what's going on at the moment. And even in that conversation with Jonathan was vague as to the specifics. But it felt right to tell people that I haven't seen my daughter for 17 months now, nearly 18 months, because I'm sick of hiding that fact. And, you know, when the time is right, I may get into specifics. But it's been incredibly difficult and painful. I miss her a lot. And I hope I get to see her soon, I hope that their soulful situation that is ongoing, is resolved. So thank you for listening to that episode for allowing me to be vulnerable with you on the podcast. And hopefully, there will be good news in the not too distant future. But as I said, with Jonathan, and as I say, to many people, you know, whatever life throws at me, I tried to do my best. I look at what the positives are. And I tried to concentrate on those rather than fixating on the negative is not always easy. And I can't change the past. I can't control the actions of others. But I do have control over the present moment, to a certain extent. And when I have moments of joy when I have glimpses of joy, I think if I can have one moment, I can have other moments. And sometimes that is what you need. You just need that little light. And you keep going on despite there being a lot of pain. In my present. There is joy, there are moments of light as well. And so I want people to know that I want people to know. Now I do have good things going on, such as the podcast, such as my writing sent kids A great community of friends, a lot of support a wonderful girlfriends so things will get better. And as Laurel Hightower has often quoted to me, and as it was said by John Lennon, things will be okay in the end. If it's not okay. It's not the end. And so remember, if you're not okay, then it is not the end, things will get better. Well, I promise you that the next episode with Jonathan ganz is a little lighter. There are more jokes in it. It might not be the camera more level during Dixon, the beach kind of humor, but we have some laughs It's a pretty good time we get into some write in as well. We talk about literary agents and screenwriting. And if you want to get that ahead of the crowd, and if you want to support the podcast, and to help me out in this difficult time, then do consider becoming a email@example.com forward slash This Is Horror. If you've got a story that you'd like to get into shape, and you're looking for a freelance editor then consider me check out my rates Michael David wilson.co.uk forward slash editing drop me a line Michael at this is horror.co.uk. Similarly, if you would like to advertise on This Is Horror Podcast. Please do drop me a line. Michael at this is horror.co.uk. And speaking of advertising, let's have a little bit of an advert break our own
Bob Pastorella 1:26:39
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Michael David Wilson 1:27:45
Now something that has always been a popular feature of This Is Horror. is the This Is Horror awards. And the shortlist for the This Is Horror awards 2021 Because, you know, we run them the year after, so that we've looked at the entire year. Well, that will be announced this week. It may even have been announced at the time that this is going live. So you're going to be close. So it's either been announced or it will be announced imminently. So do check those out on the website. This is horror.co.uk forward slash awards, and vote for your favorite horror of last year. We got so many great categories, including novel of the year, short story collection of the year, and even podcasts categories for fiction and nonfiction. And, you know, if you haven't read everything, or you haven't listened to everything on the list, I think that these awards every year, they serve as a pretty great reading and listening list. So do certainly check out those who are up for an award. And you've got time to read and to listen to things because we've given you about a month this year to vote. And I it's always an exciting time for me as well. So I can't wait to see who wins each category. And then of course to host the This Is Horror award special podcast. So it's going to be great fun, and there's going to be some really great conversations and good episodes coming out as a result of those awards as well. And talking have good episodes coming up. After the Jonathan Jan's conversations. We've got episodes of Brian Asman. We talk about his latest Christmas novella, as well as the positively viral man fuck this house. And we're also going to be talking very soon indeed. To John Niven great offer. Someone who remind To me a little bit of the likes of Martin Amis and we'll cover an Irvine Welsh, but completely his own. He's got books such as straight white male, and kill your friends. Steven Estelle Fox man, that character and also the amateurs which is the best book I've ever read that combines golf and Tourette's. Now it might admittedly be the only book but it's a bloody good book. I do recommend that you check that out. I do recommend that you check out John Niven. And with that said, it is time for me to bid you adieu. So until next time, take care yourselves. Be good to one another. Read horror. Keep on writing and have a great great day.