TIH 460: Gemma Amor on Angry Robot, Artificial Intelligence, and Dear Laura Adaptations

TIH 460: Gemma Amor on Angry Robot, Artificial Intelligence, and Dear Laura Adaptations

In this podcast, Gemma Amor talks about Angry Robot, artificial intelligence, Dear Laura adaptations, and much more. 

About Gemma Amor

Gemma Amor is the Bram Stoker Award-nominated author of Dear Laura, Full Immersion, White Pines, and many other books.

She is also a podcaster, illustrator, and voice actor, and is based in Bristol, in the U.K.

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Michael David Wilson 0:07

Welcome to This Is Horror, a podcast for readers, writers and creators. I'm Michael David Wilson and every episode alongside my co host, Bob Pastorella. We chat with masters of horror, about writing, life lessons, creativity, and much more. Now, today's guest is Gemma Amore. She is a British author of horror fiction, a podcaster and an illustrator. And she has written a number of books, including her latest from angry robot for immersion. She also co wrote a fantastic podcast calling darkness and has contributed to a number of other podcasts including the no sleep podcast. Now this is the second of a two part conversation. But as with all it is you can listen in any order. And then this one we talk a little bit more about her novel full immersion and working with angry robot. We also talk about artificial intelligence, and some dear Laura adaptations both current and potentially forthcoming ones. But before any of that, a little bit of an advert break,

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Michael David Wilson 3:05

All right. With that said here it is it is part two of Gemma Amore on This Is Horror. Going back to full immersion, I'm wondering how closely the full immersion we have today resembles what you submitted to angry robot because we know that it's quite different to what you initially wrote in the sense that it was more just a diary and you didn't initially conceive of this being published. But how about the changes from submission to what is imminently out there in the world?

Gemma Amor 3:48

Sure. It went through various different processes actually, I think at the same time that I submitted it to angry robot. I knew there wasn't there was something not quite right with it in terms of the balance of characters and the way some of the characters were presented. So for for kind of clarity. The book has a quite a small cast of characters it has Magpie who's the kind of main protagonist and narrator. It has her mysterious friend who goes unnamed and then it has two other unnamed characters who are respectively or actually Evans has a name and then Evans is boss. So that's kind of the main four. And when I originally sent the manuscript angry robot had a lot of very good feedback as to you know, I have a default mode sometimes of writing people and he was very unsympathetic. I think perhaps that's some of my own experience and how I've been treated by medical professionals or you know, whatever in the past coming through. What it when you have a cast of characters, they're all unsympathetic. Am I quite difficult to access or quite kind of cold on the surface? Or unlikable, I suppose, as the word it can be harder for a reader sometimes to access their own emotions and why they care perhaps about some of those people. I'm not saying or advocating that everybody has to write likable characters, because I think that's bullshit. But I think sometimes when there's an opportunity to create people in a more nuanced way, good and bad. Then what angry robot did was they pointed that out to me. And simultaneously to that, and I've kind of mentioned him in the in the acknowledgments at the back of the book as well. So I'm sure he won't mind me, thanking him, I sent a rough edit version of this over to Glen Mazzara, who's a kind of noted screenwriter, he was up for The Walking Dead, I think, at one point, really good guy, really, really strong grasp of, I guess, story arc, and he very, very quickly pointed out several main flaws with the novel around the character balance and the dynamics. And so it was almost a kind of organic process of those two bits of feedback together, it made me switch for example, Evans and Evans's boss were both men in the original draft, I then realized it would probably, I think, mostly thanks to Glenn's feedback, be better to explore what it would be like to have a woman in a managerial role, assessing another woman's mental health and managing that, particularly as it related to postnatal stuff. And if she in her own right was also a parent, and a carer, what extra dynamic that would bring rather than the initial dynamic, which was kind of two very cold unsympathetic men overseeing the treatment of a woman, which I think has been done to death, quite honestly, anyway, it changed the book completely having another female character in it. That's just one example. Other things included, you know, just like general developmental edits, where people kind of pointed out, well, perhaps you should play more on this scene and build up some more dread here, perhaps we can put some more foreshadowing in here, we need to pull back on this scene because it perhaps isn't very necessary. You know, other things like that it was a very, extremely educational process for me writing this book, because I still now feel like there's stuff that I could continue to tweak and change and make better, but I always felt like that. But every book, it definitely isn't anything like it was when it was first submitted back in the end of 2020. I think it was I sent over the original manuscript. But I think that's how most books go. Right. I think most books don't look anything like the original version of it that you send, when they finally hit the shelves or hit your readers hands.

Michael David Wilson 8:05

Yeah, yeah. And of course, what you just said, begs the question, How did you first get connected with Glen Mazzara.

Gemma Amor 8:15

On social media, I think I don't, I don't, I can't really remember, I just am. Can't remember, I genuinely can't remember, like, I'm literally such a horror on social media, I would just follow and talk to anybody. In a kind of appropriate way, obviously, I'm very lucky, I've just got I've got, you know, I'm able to sort of put a call out and say, Would anybody like to help me be to read this version of the manuscript, and people will respond, and he responded, and so I sent it to him, which I'm very grateful for, and hopefully, I'll get a chance to do the same for him. In the future. If he ever sends anything my ways, most things for me are about like relationships that are kind of mutually founded, you know, it's really easy. You can always tell when somebody wants to be friends with you, because they want something out of you. Versus they genuinely take an interest in you and your life and your career and they want to help and the kind of unspoken, acknowledgment that you would do the same for them. And that's how I approached most relationships and stuff. So yeah, it's just it's I keep saying it. I'm banging the same drum, but it really is about social media a lot of the time.

Michael David Wilson 9:31

Yeah, yeah. And I love to that you just put a call out and of all your connections. It was Glenn Lazaro decided, yeah, I'll take a look at it. It's like, yeah, he's

Gemma Amor 9:43

a very, very he's, he's a great advocate for other writers. He's extremely helpful and supportive. He knows his shit obviously inside and out. He's a really nice guy. He's very approachable as well, so he's worth follow. He often shares like nuggets or Wisdom and things online about his writing process and they start in the other so it's a good guy as Glen

Michael David Wilson 10:07

probably should follow him especially because I was thinking to him, How are you connected with him and then I had a cheeky navigate to his page and it's like, oh shit, he follows me. Why aren't I following him back?

Gemma Amor 10:24

Don't have a strong word with you. Sit on the naughty step for five minutes.

Michael David Wilson 10:29

I mean, probably what happened was he like, he probably started following me at a point where someone had like, tagged me in something absolutely meaningless. And I was just like crossing off notifications and

Gemma Amor 10:43

then I mean, I'm no I'm no expert, but he seems like an ideal candidate for This Is Horror interview. I mean, just saying

Bob Pastorella 10:52

word right out of my mouth.

Michael David Wilson 10:56

Bob's like he's following you and you haven't invited him on to this.

Gemma Amor 11:03

I will accept a consultation fee

Michael David Wilson 11:06

quotation fee

let's move on before I'm in even more debt. Respect my boundaries.

Gemma Amor 11:23

I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I've overstepped I will take myself to the naughty step. Ahead between my knees and shame.

Michael David Wilson 11:31

Yeah, I mean, you used to boys shout in respect my boundaries that you after what you say about your

Gemma Amor 11:40

lately? Absolutely. I'm just trying to comb your hair respect, my boundaries are fine.

Michael David Wilson 11:48

You're never difficult with combing my hair these days.

Gemma Amor 11:53

Where there's a will there's a way

Michael David Wilson 11:56

that you go. But I mean, with the start of the book, and obviously the initial premise, this idea of someone discovering their own dead body. I mean, this work selflessly on multiple levels, metaphorically and, literally. So I mean, what was the genesis for this specific part of a story?

Gemma Amor 12:25

I mean, it's so it's interesting for me, because that's obviously the hook that I use to sell the book, in kind of, I guess, key line, or whatever you want to call it, the blurb. But it's actually a very small part of the novel is, as you read it, as you go through it, it's an introduction to the idea that the protagonist is not in a situation that is normal. Obviously, it's a device in order to kind of try and unsettle the reader as quickly as possible, because again, it's such an outrageous concepts of staring at your own dead body. But it's a very small part of what actually unfolds. But the idea for it came, as most things do, it was most books for me start with like an image that just flashes into my mind, or a sound or a song or a snippet of dialogue that pops up. And this for me was, it was the image of, it's based in Bristol, where I live. And there's a river that goes underneath a huge suspension bridge, which I'm very well acquainted with, for various different reasons. And there's a very noticeable kind of thick mud bank, sort of lining this river. It's a big river, that sort of tidal river that goes out into the seven estuary. And it just be used to look at that mud a lot. And a kind of thought always thought it was a good analogy for how it felt to be depressed, which I'll come back to later because that imagery then plays out throughout the entirety of the book. But also just the idea of a I guess, a body lying on the mud bank, kind of face up staring at the sky was it was just popped into my head. And I started to play with that in terms of what it would feel like if you look down and realize you're looking at yourself, how would that feel? You know, how weird would that be? It not in a way that you're like a ghost, but in an actual, I'm alive, but I'm looking at my own dead body, how would that play out? But it also coincided with several other images that I had, that that I dumped down that sort of all merged together to form the book. It's a difficult book to explain the writing process of because it's such a A symbolic book

in so many ways. So the other idea that I had was if you were assessing your own life, and you could assess it via a series of objects to kind of define key moments in your life, which is a big part of the plot of the novel, how would that look if it was presented in a real world sense? So let's say, somebody gave you five objects from your life that was significant to you, and you chose a vase, a coffee cup, a pair of glasses, crystal ball, do you not I mean a shoe? How would you then present those in a way that you could navigate through in order to create a narrative, right. And then I started to think about a gallery, and a gallery lined with pedestals and upon those pedestals were a series of objects, and those objects were particularly significant to me. And it became like a bit of a therapy thought experiment, because like I said, when I started writing this, it was mostly I've got feelings that I need to explore. And I've got issues that I need to deal with, what's the best way of me doing that. And it started as a kind of diary series of diary entries. And then I started to use this concept of, I need to think about my life in relation to a series of objects that will help me deal with some difficult things. And then from there, it just kind of grew and grew and grew, as I started to think about, actually, how could you then make a novel which is about a dead body, and about a gallery full of objects, and make that accessible to a reader? Who knows fuck all about you and your brain and why it's working in that way? And then I started to think, well, in what ways in the modern world? Do we find ourselves suddenly immersed in kind of weird situations that don't make any sense, but visually, are very arresting or very consuming? And I was like, video games, you know. And then I started to think beyond that, like, because you know, when you're navigating like a puzzle game, which I play a lot of puzzle games, you're walking around these beautiful kind of 3d environments, right? There's no threat involved, you're just exploring and searching and solving puzzles. And I love that kind of gameplay. And then I started to think about how could you ratchet that up a level, maybe we could start thinking about virtual reality technology and being fully kind of immersed. And then that's how suddenly the actual nugget of the book came out, finally, so it was a very long convoluted process of like, sorting through random snippets of imagery, random thought processes, random thought experiments, and trying to shovel that into like a, an actual cohesive novel, that somebody else would be able to read and understand. Hopefully, I've done that, I still think some readers struggle with a few of the bits to do with the ending some of the imagery they don't quite get, because it's very personal, unique to me. But I don't think you necessarily have to understand all of it to access the main message of the book anyway. So yeah, that's it. I always struggled to kind of pin down the origins of a book, because my process is so messy, and chaotic. And it's like a scrapbook. My head is like a scrapbook of snippets of this and pictures and colors and feelings and thoughts and emotions, and music and sights and sounds. And somehow I managed to get all those scraps down, or thread all those beads onto a necklace in a way that makes sense eventually, but it takes me a while to get there. It's, it's a journey. So

Michael David Wilson 18:33

when you have all those objects in the scraps, and they're kind of dancing and competing in your head, do you as well as writing it down? Do you have like a kind of, I guess, physical space with different objects or like a cork board or just something. So you've also got that realia as well as, you know, just the writing. I don't know, if you use objects as an aid for the creative process.

Gemma Amor 19:04

I do very much I'm very object driven. I have a say I am very sentimental. I attach a lot of significance to objects. I have a lot of objects in memory boxes and in storage and around my house that have huge importance to me. So I've always been that way inclined. When I'm writing I have AIDS on my desk that helped me focus like I've got a crystal and big lump of Rose Quartz. And they're kind of color changing sphere and stuff. I find I'm a very sensory person. I do need to scribble notes down on a whiteboard, but I'm not one of those kinds of crazy whiteboard planners with the red thread and the pins and the flags and all that shit. I can't do that because it's too logical for my brain. But I do like to have an extra notebook that helps me when I'm out walking an idea might suddenly smack me that Oh shit, I haven't done that. Or I haven't tied off that to read, or I haven't said this thing, and then I'll jot that down. And then frequently, I'll go through the manuscript and look back at the notebook and see, oh, these are some of the observations and thoughts I had. I wish I was more structured in my approach to writing a book, I desperately wish I had a more systematic way of doing it. But everything I do creatively is very organic. Which is why it's so nice to have an editorial team to kind of help keep me on track this time. But no, I don't have a gallery in my house. per se. Maybe I should. I've been toying with the idea. One day, and I'm loaded and I've got a mansion.

Michael David Wilson 20:44

I mean, you were saying you were privileged, I suppose to try not to die you it's like a gallery

Gemma Amor 20:53

in the sense that I can walk down a marble colonnaded gallery full of self indulgent objects to do with my life. No, definitely not. There's a cardboard box in the attic. Yeah.

Michael David Wilson 21:04

I have a humble beginnings. So you know, the cardboard box? We can work on the marble later. Exactly. Yeah. I suppose with the kind of virtual reality and the experimental treatments. I mean, it's easy to make black mirror comparisons. So was that something you were conscious of? In both? Yeah, definitely. Yeah, yeah.

Gemma Amor 21:33

Yeah, definitely. I mean, it's hard not to be influenced by Black Mirror, I think, again, particularly as British person because so many of the episodes revolve around British society and politics and culture and stuff here. And not so much as the series kind of evolves. In the latest series, but definitely, early on. And I mean, Charlie Brooker is a kind of British institution has been on the TV scene for a long, long time. And it's defined a lot of how we interact with each other comedically in what we consume in that sense as well. So I am fascinated by the potential of technology always have been, I don't understand as much about it as I would like, I will admit to that being extremely unable to process deeply technological concepts, just because my brain isn't wired that way. But the human potential inherent in evolving tech and how it can change our lives and make them better or make them worse, is something that black mirror has always explored. And something that I've always, you know, sought sought in terms of reading material, I've always read, you know, saying on another show that I've read a lot of Isaac Asimov, when I was younger, and, and I'm just, I was big Trekkie, when I was younger, you know, like, tech is, a lot of people are afraid of it. And it features heavily in the horror genre, and in the Sci Fi genre is something to be afraid of. But for me, I wanted to explore what it would be like to use it as a tool for self discovery and for improvement and for healing, and for discovering one's own potential and bringing things out. And the more I thought about virtual reality, in particular, and the more I realized what's happening, and people that are experimenting with it, not just physically but mentally, the more I was, like, just think about the applications of this, this program was real in the real world, like, and one of the characters in the novel kind of goes into that a little bit, she sort of says, you know, think about child therapy, think about police work, think about advertising, think about all sorts of ways in which it could kind of enhance our lives, I guess. And that it does fascinate me and I think fiction often deals with that relationship that humans have with technology, as being a bit of a kind of, we're a bit afraid of its potential but also these are the ways in which it could enhance our lives. So another one that always inspired me in that sense was altered carbon which the first two series of that were fantastic as well on was it Netflix can't remember. But the idea of kind of reincarnating yourself over and over again, keeping the same identity but multiple different kinds of physical forms over the years and that the the upsides to that and then the the definite downsides to that too. And humans are obsessed with longevity as well right? Like we want to live forever. In some senses, you can kind of do that online and in a computer game or with code right? There's there's there's an imprint of all of us that exists now on the Internet that will probably be around for many many years to come even after we're gone, which is something else I think about which is quite haunting concept will we'll all be digital ghosts eventually. Right? So it's, yeah, it's some I'd like to write more about it. I wish I was more technologically versed. It helps that I my husband is a kind of a I did physics University and as an engineer and does a lot of high tech stuff now, because he sometimes explains things to me in layman's terms in a way that I can access. I imagined that there are going to be some people who are well versed in VR who read the book and go, nope, that's wrong. which case I apologize deeply in advance. But I don't think it interferes with the conceptual part of the novel, which is, what would happen if a woman was hooked up to a program which allowed her to take control of her own therapeutic experience by navigating a series of virtual environments. And then what would happen if perhaps, somehow beyond that, her brain kind of meshed with the program in a way that nobody anticipated and she could start to live out her full potential, or using technology as a tool. So yeah, that's that's very much a nod towards black mirror. And also, again, people like Jeff noon, who write that kind of technological sci fi that I loved.

And another major influences, Stephen hauls, the Rorschach texts, which is a very allegorical portrayal of one man's grief. That's much, much more wildly conceptual than mine, which is rooted in technology. But the kind of concept still stands in his novel, there is a conceptual word shock, hunting him across the pages of the novel. And that's actually a manifestation of his grief and anger, at losing his girlfriend on holiday in Greece. And I wanted something similar. So I kind of, it's not a new concept, but I wove something into my novel and along the same lines, so I'm very interested in fiction that blurs the boundaries of reality, and plays with the concept of reality. But then also how you can maybe kind of squish that into a technological question, as well, so that there's just enough reality to make you question the reality. That makes sense.

Michael David Wilson 27:01

Yeah, yeah, I'm talking about a digital imprint left the world kinda last after death. I mean, it kind of made me realize, we, me and Bob have done now nearly over 500 episodes of this, it will be very easy for people to take all the audio, kind of create an AI have us. And then once we're dead, they can continue interviewing people, they could just feed the book in

Gemma Amor 27:34

it. The other thing that fascinates me is the idea of you know, how you have a forensic archaeologist who will piece together the parts of a body long deceased to try and give him an identity. And often they do that, so that the relatives of somebody who is missing has some sort of bodily remains which to cremate, or have a funeral around or, you know, it's that identification process is key to the whole point of forensic archaeology in many ways. Or, what am I saying? Is it forensic archaeology or anthropology, I beg your pardon forensic anthropology. But then imagine you take that forward in a world where there are digital forensic anthropologists or archaeologists, and they're piecing together the pieces of you that existed two 300 years prior, and they're rebuilding your identity for the purposes of history or science or whatever, right? That fascinates me. And then we've got the concept of consent, like, do we consent to that happening, like, you know, how Professor Von Hagen had bodies on display in his his exhibition that dealt with the kind of human body, it was plastinated human bodies that were all completely exposed and on display, and people paid money, and they walked around, and they saw it, those people had donated their bodies to him for that purpose. So they had consented. But where's the online version of that? You know, is there going to be a holographic reproduction of, of Michael in 40 years time? You know, talking about horror at night? Where is the consent inherent in that? It's it again, that's quite a horrible concept, right? But it can also be quite a comforting one, because your ancestors will go oh, that's uncle Michael. And isn't it bizarre? Isn't it bizarre how we just don't know. We don't know. There could be an enormous technological blackout in the next 20 years. And all of this is dead, and none of this will carry on. Yeah, it's you just don't know. And that's fascinating to me. Absolutely. fascinating to me.

Michael David Wilson 29:32

Yeah. And I think in terms of consent, I mean, if we think about the amount of times that we click things, and we accept the terms and conditions digitally, and we

Gemma Amor 29:44

don't, we don't have those cookies, motherfucker. Yeah, well, I do not consent.

Michael David Wilson 29:50

We get rid of the cookies, but they'll often be like, if you want an apple program, it's like click to agree to the terms of conditions and it's like, I don't agree in it. It's like, okay, you can't have the program and then like some kind of salty teenager, okay, fine, fine, I agree reluctantly, but grudgingly. But there's probably something you know, even where I've uploaded this or even where I'm hosting it, or I've consented to something, where then in years to come, the big corporation that then owns some of that can then consent for all of the podcasters on their platform to be turned into these bizarre AI versions. And I mean, in terms of creating things, I know, goodness, I think it was a few years ago now, when Joanna pen was talking about, you know, the idea of there being technology where you can upload some stories from the office, and then they will come up with a kind of digital version of a story that they might have written. And there's no real question attached to that. It's just, it's a weird idea. And it's a weird idea to that there's the potential as the technology gets advanced enough, that there may be a I created stories that are better than some non AI created stories. I mean,

Gemma Amor 31:26

there's mid journey, right? There's mid journey art, which everyone's playing with at the moment, which terrifies me this kind of AI art, and you put in a sequence of key search terms, and it gives you this digital painting, which often is extremely appealing to look at. It's scary to me in one sense. But in another sense, I think I was talking to talking scared about this. There's the concept of with animation and stuff with uncanny valley, right? Where you as a human, intrinsically know that what you're looking at isn't human, even though it looks like you talk like you moves like you, it's still not quite good enough to mimic you completely to the point where you know, it's human. So I think there's a part of us that will continue to seek out human creative content, because we just know, deep down that even you know, because perhaps because it's flawed, that it was created by somebody else like us. But like, it is fascinating to me to see how that will evolve. Going forward. You know, you can, yeah, it's fascinating. It's the idea of automation, and the ethics, I suppose surrounding it as well. Yeah, yeah.

Michael David Wilson 32:47

Yeah. And I mean, I don't think at least in if I think about what I personally enjoy, and why I enjoy different stories that AI created fiction would ever replace human created fiction for me in a sense that it would make it obsolete. Now, I certainly think there's the potential that there could be aI created fiction that I enjoy that that doesn't seem inconceivable. But one of the reasons that, you know, I like a lot of human created fiction is that it's real, authentic stories. And there's a story behind the story. And so this is,

Gemma Amor 33:31

yeah, this is the whole point of the novel that I've written is about Yeah, it'd be very difficult for a computer generated program, to have been through the same experiences and written the same thing, unless you get to the point where the program doesn't realize it's a program and it has kind of falsely imprinted memories of something, which it experiences emotional reactions to and then goes on to put those into the fiction, but we were often around

Michael David Wilson 33:58

let's assume that it does. But even even if that were the case, I feel because we know that that is in fact AI so it didn't really experience it than that has removed a layer of authenticity because it isn't authentic.

Gemma Amor 34:18

The computer thinks it is to the pain is authentic, you know, isn't and these are these are the these are the things I like to play with in my head that that kind of what ifs the the it's the whole I guess love death robots thing, right? Can Can machines feel can? Can robots feel? Again, Asim. I've played with that a lot. It's it's the idea of self awareness and consciousness. And many people kind of liken the human brain to a computer anyway, it works in similar ways, right? And we don't even understand a 10th of the own potential of our own brains. Though it doesn't make sense to me that there is a future in which the possibility of kind of sentient AI doesn't perhaps rear its head in the future. I don't know enough about it scientifically, but it just, if what we're doing with computing is replicating the human brain, then I don't see why that doesn't also include emotions and feelings and thoughts. That kind of, you know, does that make you know, I just I love exploring that and thinking about that it's, it adds another layer to the idea of humanity, I think that is worth if giving our brains a bit of time to,

Michael David Wilson 35:40

if I create an AI, an AI, that can feel pain, and the AI feels pain, did it really feel pain.

Gemma Amor 35:52

But the ethics of that don't mean it almost doesn't matter because the thing is in pain, right?

Michael David Wilson 36:02

So I'm being unethical,

Gemma Amor 36:06

is a very, that's a very prescient thing for actually full immersion. So in the novel, one of the the experimental program managers talks about a real world experiment, which I researched a VR experiment where the participants were exposed to chilli powder, right, and some of them were just sat in a room, and they were just they either had it rubbed on their skin, or they ingested it can't remember which, and the other ones were in a virtual reality setting surrounded by polar ice caps and the Arctic, the ones that were in that VR setting with the headset on with the immersion, and all that going on around them experienced less physical pain than the ones that weren't, because they were being immersed in a cold, icy situation. And the capsicum element of the chili powder wasn't as effective to them as it was without that distraction. So how much of what we experienced in pain is physical, and how much of that is the brain and how much of that is mental. And if that is the case, then a computer could, in theory, experience a real level of pain, if a lot of it is to do with brainwaves and how you process pain and pain receptors and things like that. I don't know, I'm not a biologist. I'm not a neurologist. But to me, it's fascinating that you can affect your body physically, by convincing your brain that you are somewhere other than where you are. And I think that's how hypnosis works to a certain level. You see, examples of this with people around the world who walk across beds of coals, or nails, lie on beds of nails, and they don't experience any pain, you know, they've convinced themselves there is no pain there is, I think, a level of consciousness that we don't know, on an everyday basis how to access which allows us to override the physical symptoms of pain, maybe. Again, I'm not an expert. I'm just I'm just going on what I've observed, right? Or they have an extremely high pain tolerance. Maybe they're just biologically weird. I don't know. But I do think that all of that is still vastly unexplored. So why wouldn't you be able to replicate that in a computer program? Who knows? Like, what is pain? What is the actual definition of pain? That's a big old broad question.

Michael David Wilson 38:29

See, you just like freuen we go down a rabbit hole we want to explore all these philosophical questions now. Like we're not going to on This Is Horror report.

Gemma Amor 38:45

Scientist at all. So I'm just spitballing theories, scientific basis.

Michael David Wilson 38:51

This like, like the best this is our podcast. In my opinion, this has now kind of just turned into going down the pub and talking about these weird kind of philosophical ideas. And so now I'm wondering so do we think and by we I mean Bob and Gemma is as unethical to her a computer actually is a human is that is that the conclusion that we're going down that if the pain is as real for the computer, as it is for the human then it then it is as unethical because because my gut reaction is that it's more unethical to hurt the human but I'm interested in exploring this so I want your tapes. I also want the listeners take so tweeters if you can get this answer in less than the character limit.

Gemma Amor 39:57

I didn't know I had a really basic level I can't like I can't speak for Bob, but I just don't like the idea of hurting anyone really, like plants, people, computers, animals, you know, I'm not. I know, I can't categorize them all in the same level, and I shouldn't. But just the very concept of causing pain or harm to anything, or anybody really just upsets me. So I'm gonna be again, I'm gonna err on the side of caution and say, I don't like it. Even in video games, I'm, I'm pathetic at video games, I just can't. I like puzzle games, give me an empty fantasy world to explore and solve puzzles in like mist or Cyan Worlds or any of that stuff. And I'm happy. As soon as you introduce that element of threat or personal interaction or like why people play The Last of Us, which is like the most emotionally devastating thing I can't I can't imagine like, being in that driving seat and having to make decisions that affect fictional characters in that way. It just, I can't do it personally, because I'm a bigger worst. I remember talking to someone about like, we got an ex Xbox. Finally, for my kid, and I've played a few games. I'm not really into gaming that much, but I want to learn more about it. And I thought I start off easy. And I went with Resident Evil seven. And I got so scared, I couldn't actually remember how to control

Michael David Wilson 41:25

Resident Evil.

Gemma Amor 41:28

It was awful. And I had to get my husband to come downstairs to take the controller off me to figure out how to run away. Because I had a complete shutdown. So I'm a terrible person to ask in that sense, because I just, I just don't like the idea of hurting anybody really, like I never have. I've always even cartoons, if I saw a sad cartoon character, I'd be devastated. I'm a very emotional person. Everybody knows me. Well, understand. Can't speak for Bob they bob has probably different opinions.

Bob Pastorella 42:01

Well, I mean, I don't like hurting people. But you know, if it comes down to, you know, I think that it like if, let's say that you get angry about something. And it's your computer compared to getting angry with the person. Okay, the person you can talk to and things like that. And think ultimately, if you got angry at your computer and you got physical, then in a sense, you've actually hurt yourself, because you're probably going to need a computer. And punching your fist to the monitor isn't really going to help you. It's going to hurt you physically, and it's going to hurt you, you know, monetarily because you're gonna have to buy a new monitor. But sometimes that shit feels really fucking good. News

Gemma Amor 42:51

to say to be right back just off to smash some liquid crystals. Yeah.

Bob Pastorella 43:01

I work in tech. And I have to I have to interface and we use, we use iPod, you know, iPads, which are really, really strong. The software that we use sucks because the corporation we got it for free, it was one of the shareholders. But it doesn't work, but it was free. Like, you know, that point right there? Do you want to punch the computer or punch the person who made that decision? You know, and I mean, realistically, what we should do is punch the person who made the decision.

Michael David Wilson 43:35

I think I've accidentally cause pain to bump we've

Gemma Amor 43:41

been tickled.

Bob Pastorella 43:44

I think people including myself should be punished more often.

mean, we're talking about, you know, physical pain, or emotional pain or computers. At the end of the day, you may feel ethically that they do feel something because the saint, you know, talking about the AI, and it can be taught to, you know, to or it can learn to do this and become sentient things like that. But at the end of the day, you're like, you're just a fucking machine.

Gemma Amor 44:20

But then no definition of a machine as well. The other thing I tend to think of a lot now, which I spent far too much brainpower on, is the idea of funghi and fungal neural networks, which is a fantastically interesting thing. I don't know if you've seen fantastic funghi documentary on Netflix and other fiction goes into this an awful lot. But there's, there's kind of quite strong evidence that mushrooms and other funghi kind of have a network. And that's how they communicate, right? I don't know exactly how it works. But how is that any different to how a computer network works? It isn't. It really isn't. So What is your definition of a machine? Is it something that's utterly inorganic? And in that case, it makes it acceptable? Is it a question of how it works? What? How do we define machine capability? I don't know, these are all like, I wish I was cleverer sometimes. So that I could actually genuinely like, dig into these things, and read around them and understand them. But I know that as soon as I started Googling, that I would just get, I would drown in academic papers that I didn't have the beginnings of being able to understand so. But I feel like the world is like, built on a series of like organic networks, maybe that are operating on like a computer? Maybe? I don't know, I don't know, feel free to correct me because I'm, I'm very much out of my depth. Now. I really

Michael David Wilson 45:52

think that after this conversation, we're all going to go away researching so much in terms of all these kind of philosophical and moral questions that we've now raised. And

Gemma Amor 46:05

I'm not, I'm gonna go and brush the crumbs out of my

Bob Pastorella 46:07

mouth start asking these questions, and you start trying to get the answers to these questions. What the universe does at that point is that poses more questions. So in other words, like, if you're, if you're, you take it out to the next logical conclusion, you know, just like if you started on something you could do radically 10 years later on. And then, yeah, this needs to be answered. And you're you're you haven't gained any ground.

Gemma Amor 46:40

This is what science fiction is. This is what science fiction is utterly rooted in is questioning, questioning our current reality and then posing a future in which a reality is different in a way that answers those questions. And I think that's why I've always been drawn to it. Because how much science fiction do we now see as an actuality? Right, you know, like, and that's, I love that. I love that that's the potential of the human brain right there, questioning our own existence, and then changing it constantly as we drive forward. And we learn more about ourselves, and we learn new about, about new technologies and stuff. So it's, we're always evolving, I think, and I love that. And a lot of that plays out in science fiction, which is something I'd like to explore a lot more of going forward. I'd like to write more sci fi actually. And it's a different it's a different kettle of fish to writing a horror novel, but it kind of isn't, isn't. But it's very easy to fall foul of critics with sci fi because science fiction has to be grounded in science. Unfortunately,

Michael David Wilson 47:43

yeah. Yeah. Well, we've got a question from Nichole Neely via Patreon. And she would like to know, what is the best advice that you have other moms or parents in general? Who writes horror?

Gemma Amor 48:04

advice in terms of, I guess, how to do it? Or how to juggle the two i Yeah,

Michael David Wilson 48:11

like Nicole is literally advice. So and any advice you can say kind of choose your own adventure, I suppose,

Gemma Amor 48:20

I guess, I guess. So. I think if we're talking in terms of juggling, and wanting to be somebody who writes and also parents, I get that I get the struggle between finding time for yourself. I mean, for me, personally, I've always wanted to be a writer. And I've always written and I've had various attempts over my life to kind of finish novels and stuff. But when you have a career, or other responsibilities, it's very, very difficult to finish anything creatively. It just is. Because you need consistency. And you need routine in order to kind of fully get yourself in the headspace to tell a story properly, I think personally. So I, you know, hats off to anybody with a full time job who's doing this gig and they're making it work because I have nothing but respect for that, because I couldn't do it. But for me, I wasn't really able to focus on writing creatively until my kids started school. So that's the thing that I would say is, it's absolutely fine and valid to struggle. Because because kids don't leave a lot of energy for you. The end of the day. Mine certainly didn't and still doesn't. If we're talking in terms of the themes. I wonder whether there is an extra layer of horror awareness that you get when you have kids that perhaps you didn't have an appreciation of before. And I've spoken about this in other areas, but like particularly in terms of body horror, in terms of what suddenly scared As you that didn't scare you before, like your entire relationship with fear completely transforms when you have children or it certainly did with me, I'm fucking terrified of everything now, when my kids involved that I wouldn't have been before. The your role as a caregiver and a protector gives you a heightened sense of awareness and threat and fear that never goes away, which is quite exhausting is something they don't tell you about being a parent, but they don't tell you a lot about being a parent. In a way, though, it kind of sets you up almost to be a horror writer, because you suddenly get a full understanding of what fear feels like, right? I'm not, I'm not dismissing the different types of fear and other people's kind of relationships and experiences with it. I'm not saying you can't be scared, if you don't have kids, I don't mean that at all. It's more of that, for me personally, my boundaries, personal boundaries and relationships with those stronger emotions and fears and threats and stuff completely transformed when I had a child. Obviously, I struggled with my own mental health as well, postnatally. And that's something I explore a lot in my own work in some ways. Being a horror writer and the horror genre is is a great opportunity to explore some of those more difficult themes and thoughts and fears in a way that makes sense to then go on and read. Because you can have a monster which symbolizes something, you can have something under the bed, which represents your fear, you can talk about those kind of things in a way that perhaps in other genres, you might not be able to quite so easily. I'm not sure I'm giving you any advice, rather than just kind of giving you my thoughts and feelings about being a horror writer and a parent. But I often find that they feed into each other quite a lot. If that helps, I hope that helps.

Michael David Wilson 52:00

All right, yeah. And I think there's a lot to kind of process and think about with that. And I mean, like, it's just, it's just difficult being a parent and writing and you only just write in spite of the obstacles I find. And like you said, you know, you are a writer, you've always wanted to be a writer, I find whatever happens, we will find a way. And it might not be ideal, but we'll, we'll do what we can. And we have to try our very best not to be ourselves up for what we can't do, even if this is it. Yes,

Gemma Amor 52:42

kids have no agenda, like you never know what you're gonna get on any given day with having a child and being a parent that you literally can't plan or prepare for anything, because they might get sick, or they might fall off the bed and break their arm or that something might happen. Or you'll have to drop them at practice, or, you know, there's 1,000,000,001 Different extra variables that come into your life and your apparent that you didn't have to perhaps worry about before, I suppose it's the same if you have animals as well, I hear that a lot. If you have a pet, suddenly, oh my god, your life is no longer your own. And that plays into how much free time you have, and how much ability you'd have to develop a routine. That's good for you, as well as for your children. And what I would say is that it's extremely important as a parent, to carve that time out for yourself, if at all possible. It's not always possible for everybody, particularly if you're a working parent as well. Or if you're a single parent family, or for whatever reason, it isn't easy to find time for yourself. But it is very important if you can, because you lose a sense of your own identity massively when you have children. I remember the analogy I always used was it was like when my my, my kid was born, it felt like I put myself in a box and put myself on a shelf for two or three years until I had time to open the box again. Because you're in survival mode, I was feeding and changing nappies and trying to sleep and you know, making sure the child survives and eats properly and develops into a nice rounded human being doesn't leave much time for you, at the end of all of that there is there's very little left for you. And and it's very easy to lose grip on your own identity until they get a little bit older and a bit more self sufficient. And that's how it should be. I guess that's that's parenting you, you're there for them. First and foremost, they are your priority. But that doesn't always have to be the case going forward as they get a bit older and a bit more self sufficient you you are a better parent I find and a better writer. If you take time for yourself to do the things that you love the things that make you feel like you. And again like everything else in this this conversation. It's about balance and finding that balance and that can be tricky, and there are no manuals for that. Nobody tells you how to do that shit. You just figure it out as you go along clumsy ly most things

Michael David Wilson 54:58

Yeah. Whoo, what is it that you're currently working on?

Gemma Amor 55:05

Oh, all right, so let's have a look at my whiteboard. I have currently got a novel with my agent, which hopefully will go out for submission fairly soon, which I'm excited about which I'm tweaking and editing, and polishing just to make it as punchy and impactful as it can be. That one's kind of a my attribute to definitely memoria, who's, I'm in a dimauro, a kick at the moment, rediscovering a lot of her fiction. And I wanted to write something that was very grounded in reality for change, because the novels that I've written lately have been either about parallel universes or experimental science or ghosts. And I wanted to write something that was actually grounded in reality, again, in the same mold as Dr. Laura, so that I'm just polishing and tweaking. I am working on something I'm not sure if I can talk about I think I can, for creepy podcast at the moment, an idea that I'm sort of developing with them. I am doing a lot of kind of PR and stuff to push the launch of full immersion. Which thing else they don't prepare you for as well, when you get a book that's traditionally published, and you do have the opportunity to work with a PR person, you're going to need to set a light side some significant time to help you promote that book as well. And by that it means writing guest blog articles and doing the interviews and putting in the work. That's not something that you necessarily understand before you get to that point, you're like, oh, shit, there's a whole new chunk of work I need to do to make sure this book gets seen and heard about. I have got to start recording the audio for season two of calling darkness, which has been totally written by sh Cooper for the season. I'm still in it. So that will be out at some point in the future, which will be fun. And what else I am re issuing crew works of nature, my short story collection in hardback as a hardback edition with a couple of extra stories thrown in for good measure, which I'm quite excited about. So I'm just polishing off those last two stories. And I am also working on an idea for a crime novel that I hope to write with my good friend V. Castro, who seems to be quite onboard and quite excited about that idea. So we'll see what happens about that. That's a crime novel kind of travel crime that feeds into my love of travel and exotic locations and stuff as well. I've probably got about three more novels that I might try and work on next year. And I'm also deep in the middle of kind of finishing the treatment for deer Laura that I've been working on with a couple of industry folks who've been guiding me through the process of what it's like to write a movie treatment. Like anything with Hollywood, who knows where that will end up if it'll even go anywhere. But it's been a fantastic learning curve. And I'm hoping to do some more stuff in film next year, as much as humanly possible, as well as just working with with creatives locally and making some short films and just exploring that because I've always wanted to be more involved in the movies. And since I was a kid, I've been fascinated. So that's something else that I will also hopefully be getting my teeth into. And then beyond that I'm doing some book cover commissions. There's other stuff that I've forgotten. Checking my list. I'm busy as as I like to be. So yeah.

Michael David Wilson 58:46

Yeah. And you mentioned dear Laura a couple of times. And I mean, last time we spoke, we were excited because it was going to be adapted for no sleep podcast. That has now happened and it's so good. It's Thank you,

Gemma Amor 59:07

thank you, I really enjoy it. Actually adapting it for audio helped me a lot. Think about adapting it for screen as well. Although the two are very different. The book in itself is actually quite a difficult one to adapt, because it is it jumps around from time to time. There are various different versions of Laura as she ages over a long period of time, which is quite difficult to represent visually and in audio. It's minimal locations, minimal cast of characters. So there's a lot of different considerations for with audio with exposition with a filmic version of it in like having a strong narrative thread that that ties the different versions of Laura together in a way that a viewer would understand and like, instinctively know that that was her. It's it's a difficult one to adapt. The story seems Very simple, or it did when I wrote it, but the more you try and visualize it in a different medium, the more you realize I can No, I wish I'd done a single, single time. Or, like, you know, I wish I'd done this slightly differently. But it's that's the challenge. And that's the beauty of being able to do it yourself. Because you understand the story better than anyone else, right? You should do as the writer. So the fact that I've been given the opportunity to explore that, regardless of whether it goes anywhere is is wonderful. And people seem to really like the audio at that adaptation, not everybody, but that's fair, because that's no sleep in that world. And, and I learned a lot by doing it. And I thought that the end result was just very good, very classy, beautifully acted beautifully narrated the music for that was, I think some of the best that Brandon had written up to that point. And I was just so involved in the whole process, I felt very privileged to be able to have that much involvement in it. Yeah, and it's also great thing to sort of send out to people as a bit of a proof of concept as well, in a way because the audio adaptation is a bit like any movie, I always say. Yeah, yeah. felt quite cinematic to me. Yeah.

Michael David Wilson 1:01:12

Yeah. Will no sleep or will you release the as kind of one piece? I mean, in the sense that like, when it was released, you've got like, 20 minutes on each episode? Is it something which, you know, you could put on Audible or something? I don't, of course, I don't know how that kind of rights work or what I

Gemma Amor 1:01:37

don't think it would end up, I don't think it would end up on Audible, because there is an audio book version of it with tanto media that's on Audible. And because no sleep kind of have their own way of doing things. But I do think we've we've sort of toyed with the idea of re releasing it in one go or one bundle or something, some that people can sort of buy and download in one chunk. But I need to I haven't actually asked anybody that I'll ask David. And it's a good question. Because there's definitely been bandied around before the idea of doing as a complete unit. But yeah, for now, it's just I think the easiest way of accessing all of that is to just type my name into the search bar in the the no sleep podcast website. Yeah. And they all kind of kind of should come up with all the episodes. I need.

Michael David Wilson 1:02:25

I can confirm that it does. I did wondered like, yeah, if there

Gemma Amor 1:02:33

were fewer notes? It's a good question. It's a good question. I will drop David a note and ask him what the plans are. A lot of that is kind of down to the technological capabilities of the platform and stuff as well, and how they can bundle that in there with glow as a hoster. So how it gets bundled? I don't know.

Michael David Wilson 1:02:51

Yeah, nice. I suppose if you did, it's always about thinking, well, how can we sell this? What what's the kind of appeal? And so I wonder, I mean, would it be like throwing your kind of offers noting or I mean, another because you've had so many stories over the years on no sleep? I mean, is there scope for them? Releasing a kind of special gamma remote? The no sleep podcast? cologuard?

Gemma Amor 1:03:20

No, I wouldn't like that. I think it's interesting, because there are so many other authors on that show, who've had like, five times the amount of stories produced than I have, just because they've been with the show a lot longer. And also, there's so many new authors constantly writing Brilliant stuff, I'd feel I'd feel a bit uncomfortable with anything like that. Like, I just, I think it's, it's a show where, by nature, there's something new every week. And I think actually some listeners get a bit annoyed when you focus on one writer too much anyway, there's a lot of eye rolling that goes on in that sense if you get too much airtime.

Michael David Wilson 1:03:59

I wasn't suggesting it as like an episode of no sleep, but maybe like a kind of offshoot or giving David more work base, I think, accidentally saying his wife doesn't know sleep, start their own audio book line. It's like

Gemma Amor 1:04:17

they have got a publishing arm that they're starting off. So they're starting to publish fiction. I don't know quite what's happening with that. I think sh Cooper probably knows more about that than I do. Because I think she's had a book out with them. But I imagine it's definitely something they've probably want to consider in the future. Who Who knows they're they're busy bunch. They've got a very tight schedule, and have a huge amount of content that they create on a weekly basis. So I think it's up to how much capability they have as well in terms of kind of manpower and stuff. But maybe one day who knows

Michael David Wilson 1:04:54

that trying to give everyone more work and make people more money. We're very obvious if anyone wants to consult with you for some more of VSI than I can offer.

Gemma Amor 1:05:10

Sounds like a good deal to me.

Michael David Wilson 1:05:13

Well, thank you so much for chatting with us, basically. Thank

Gemma Amor 1:05:18

you for having me back. Yeah,

Michael David Wilson 1:05:19

yeah, it's been a pleasure. And I really hope that full immersion does incredibly well, you deserve to success in this book.

Gemma Amor 1:05:32

I've really, already kind of, it's so interesting to me to start getting news coverage for a book because previously, it's just been, okay, I've built up my my reading my reader circle, for whom I'm endlessly grateful, here's my new book off, you go and read it. And if I, if I'm lucky, or get covered in some blog posts, or I'll go on to a podcast and chat about it. But with this one, I think because there's a PR team involved, or perhaps just because of where I am in my career, now I'm slightly better known. And being featured in Publishers Weekly, and in Library Journal, and on Gizmodo, and love reading and all these websites, that it boggles my mind that I'm getting coverage, you know, and, and it's actually a very emotional experience for me to see my books featured in these publications. Because up until now, I've had to do everything myself, you know. And now suddenly, my books got a library journal review. And I don't know how to feel about that, I'm so grateful. And also, just like, I don't know, it's, on the one hand, it shouldn't matter. But on the other hand, it does, because those kinds of industry publications, continue to help raise awareness of who you are as a writer, and they push you forward in people's consciousness. And I've got a network of readers that I that I know will engage with my stuff, but perhaps there are more readers out there that I can reach in different ways. And it's, it's, it's in the same way that people sort of scoff at awards and go, Well, you don't need an award to be a good writer. And it's absolutely true, you don't need that. And it's not really about validation. But what the stoker nomination did for me was it opened up a whole new world and tear of opportunities that I might not have had without the stoker nom, which then helped me in my career and it helps me to do this for a living. So these things are important to me, they do matter and, and the fact that it's it's sort of finally happening. I see other writers who are having a similar experience at the moment, I could be no Yglesias is just had a feature in the New York Times, I mean, how surreal it must be doing the grift for like 1415 years, and then suddenly, a journalist flies out and interviews you for the New York Times, right. It's an incredible moment of validation, you know, it doesn't necessarily affect the performance of a book. I don't know, I don't know enough about traditional publishing. Yeah, to know whether my book will even do that well. But simply seeing industry publications, review it and give it favorable reviews, too, is it's been a hugely emotional experience for me. And it's something I wasn't prepared for as well emotionally, either. I think I think I assume that because I've done this a few times. I knew it all. And I really don't reminder that on a daily basis. So yeah, I hope it does perform well, in the traditional sense of shifting copies to obviously, I would love it to reach a second printing, I would love for angry robots belief in me to be rewarded in that sense. But on a deeply personal level, as well, I just want it to be I guess, critically well received. Because not because I need that ego boost, but because this is a story about me. And it's a story about something that I think is important. And I want that to be received in the spirit in which I wrote it in in the way it was intended to be received. So yeah. Yeah, it's a journey.

Michael David Wilson 1:09:08

Yeah. Well, we wish you the best of luck and we hope that you don't have someone from the New York Times flying over to interview us and do

Gemma Amor 1:09:21

a lot more went to Bristol.

Michael David Wilson 1:09:23

I don't know you can take them on a haunted tour of England. We were talking about Haunted Places last time.

All right, well, where can our listeners connect with you?

Gemma Amor 1:09:43

So I would say number one place to visit at the moment is the angry robot website to look at the full immersion page where you can find various different ways of ordering the book. And also, you should now which is the first time I've ever been Now to say this, walk into any good bookstore and find a copy of full immersion when it releases on the 13th on the shelves. And if not, please do ask the bookseller or the bookstore to order in which they should be able to now do universally, it helps as well. It helps it all helps. Beyond that you can find me on Twitter, with the handle many little words and the same on Instagram, and messing about with Tik Tok, but I'm very bad at it. And I'm on Facebook, too. I think it's I can't remember what I am just stick my name in. And you can find my podcasting credits and audio stuff on pod chaser. Stick my name into Google and I'm pretty much there in many different iterations. There's a there's a digital imprint of me. Yeah. Yeah.

Michael David Wilson 1:10:52

All right. Do you have any final thoughts for our listeners?

Gemma Amor 1:10:59

I would say my main thought at this point is is just to, because I'm in that headspace at the moment, I very much want to impart a message of thanks to everybody that's sort of been with me on this journey thus far. And that includes the podcasters, who've taken an interest in me and they've taken the time to interview me and research me and ask me insightful questions. It's the readers, it's the people who've gone out of their way to review the book and give it an honest review whether or not they liked it. You know, it's the other writers and other authors that have been generous and brilliant with their time and their feedback. People like Laurel Hightower, people like Glenn Bazar, people like Brandon bean, you know, David Cummings, all of those people in my life who have supported me thus far, I am just endlessly grateful for that and that and I hope I can repay some of that as well. Going forward a little bit. I am excited to see where things go. I'm also excited that I get to meet so many of you in the industry in person at different events and stuff. So I just I think the my main parting thought is one of like, immense gratitude, and thanks to everybody who's kind of helped me sound like I'm given a fucking Oscar speech by everyone that's like helped me to get to this point now where I have a book coming out with a traditional publisher. That means the world to me, because I had no idea any of this was going to happen back when I started tinkering around with with fiction again in like 2018. So yeah, I just You're all fucking brilliant, really. So cheers.

Michael David Wilson 1:12:40

Thank you so much for listening to This Is Horror with gamma and more. Join us again next time when we will be chatting with Tyler Jones. But if you would like to get that ahead of the crowd, if you would like to get every episode ahead of the crowd, then become a patron@patreon.com forward slash, This Is Horror. Not only do you get early bird access to each and every episode, but you get to submit questions to the interviewee. And coming up very shortly we will be chatting with Brian Asman and Jonathan Jan's and support in the This Is Horror Podcast is the best way to keep the show alive is also a way to help me out personally as I have been saying for a number of months now I am going through quite a difficult time, the worst time in fact, so any support on Patreon would be a tremendous help. You're also going to get exclusive podcasts story unbox the horror podcast on the craft of writing, and the q&a sessions or myself and Bob Pastorella. And you can also become a part of the writers forum over on Discord. We are always doing writing challenges is a great place to up your writing game and to be challenged and encouraged by like minded people. So check it out. patreon.com forward slash This Is Horror and see if it's a good fit for you. Okay, before I wrap up, a little bit of an advert break

Bob Pastorella 1:14:21

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Michael David Wilson 1:15:26

As always, I would like to end with a quote and instance from Wes Craven: Horror films don't create fear. They release it. I'll see you in the next episode with Tyler Jones. But until then, take care yourselves be good to one another. Read horror. Keep on writing and have a great, great day.

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