TIH 644: Eric LaRocca on Burnt Sparrow Influences, Short Stories, and Repeated Choruses

Michael David Wilson 0:29
Welcome to This is horror podcast for readers, writers and creators. I'm Michael David Wilson, and every episode, I chat with the world's best writers about writing, life, lessons, creativity and much more. Today, I am talking to Eric LaRocca, whose collection this skin was once mine and other disturbances was recently announced as the winner of the short story collection of the year in that this is horror awards. Now, Eric has a brand new book out. We are always tender with our dead, which is the first in his brand new burnt Sparrow trilogy. And while that forms the bulk of today's conversation, we do talk about a vast array of other topics, including some of Eric's writing influences, repeated choruses in fiction, and the thriving environment for horror fiction and short stories right now, so a lot to look forward to, but before we jump into things, a quick advert break.

RJ Bayley 1:49
It was as if the video had unzipped my skin, slunk inside my tapered flesh, and become one with me.

Bob Pastorella 1:58
From the creator of this is horror comes a new nightmare for the digital age. The girl in the video by Michael David Wilson, after a teacher receives a weirdly arousing video, his life descends into paranoia and obsession. More videos follow, each containing information no stranger could possibly know, but who's sending them and what do they want? The answers may destroy everything and everyone he loves. The girl in the video as the ring meets fatal attraction for the iPhone generation, available now in paperback, ebook and audio from the host of this is horror podcast, comes a dark thriller of obsession, paranoia and voyeurism. After relocating to a small coastal town, Brian discovers a hole that gazes into his neighbor's bedroom every night she dances and he peeps same song, same time, same wild and mesmerizing dance. But soon, Brian suspects he's not the only one watching and she's not the only one being watched. Their watching is The Wicker Man meets body double with a splash of Suspiria. Their watching by Michael David Wilson and Bob Pastorella is available from this is horror.co.uk, Amazon and wherever good books are sold.

Michael David Wilson 3:07
Okay, without saying, Here it is. It is Eric LaRocca on this is horror, Eric, welcome back to this is horror.

Eric LaRocca 3:21
Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it. I'm so excited to be here and to chat with you. I feel like we always have a really good conversation whenever we get together.

Michael David Wilson 3:32
Oh yeah. I mean, I always love chatting with you. I always like reading your challenging and thought provoking stories. And I mean, speaking of which, very recently, you won the short story collection for this skin was once mine and other disturbances. So congratulations.

Eric LaRocca 3:56
Thank you so much. I was very honored and very surprised that I won, considering the the amazing talent in that category, it was really such an honor to win that award. So I cannot thank you enough for and the the voters, the people who voted like that, that means a lot.

Michael David Wilson 4:16
Yeah, I mean, I think it's a richly deserved award for yourself. And I think actually, you know, you speak about the competition, I think maybe last year was the most stacked short story collection year that we have had in a long time. I don't know if it's been that good, you know all the time that I've been running this as horror for over a decade now. So I wonder if we're in a kind of short story golden age right now.

Eric LaRocca 4:53
I hope so. I mean, I love short stories, and I've always felt more comfortable in like the short. Form, like the novella format, but especially short stories. That's really where I, like began my writing journey. Um, so for me, like short short fiction is just like my home. And I love reading short fiction. I especially love like the work of Mariana Enriquez, who was a one of the nominees from that category. I love, like Kelly link. I think she writes really fascinating short fiction. Paul Tremblay also writes, like, really amazing short fiction. And Laird Barron, John Langan, I mean, the list goes on and on, I really feel like we're, like, what you said, like, we really are in like, a renaissance of short horror fiction where it's, like, really sophisticated and really elevated, even though, like, I kind of don't like using that word elevated with horror, just because it just implies, like, things that I just don't love. But yeah, I feel like, I feel like horror is just in a in a general sense, not maybe not even just short fiction, but horror fiction on the whole, is really in a tremendous place right now where it's so rich and so it's just thriving. I mean, there's so many authors writing compelling, interesting stories and novels, novellas like it's just incredible.

Michael David Wilson 6:30
Yeah, and you speak about how, you know you love writing short stories, and you know that's kind of how you got your start. I mean, certainly things have gotten worse. Is a shorter book and is more in that category. But then if we fast forward to today, and one of the things that we're here to talk about is the burnt Sparrow trilogy, and we are always tender with our dead. So what has it been like to shift from predominantly short story writing to then writing a trilogy? And was this always conceived as a trilogy, or did it initially start as a standalone and then you realize actually there's, there's never two books in this. Yeah.

Eric LaRocca 7:23
I mean, when I first set out to write what became this trilogy, I was kind of like, you know, in the early on planning stages, I was looking at what I was outlining and how I wanted to convey the story, how I wanted to, like, accentuate certain character arcs, and the more I looked at the design of the narrative, like what I wanted to what I wanted to tell, the story I wanted to tell, I realized that it wasn't going to be like a slim volume, like, you know, a slim novel, like what I've kind of been known for, like you mentioned, things have gotten worse since we last spoke. Of course, that viral hit novella is like 120 pages, but even my other novels that I've released since then, like everything the darkness eats and at dark, I've become loathsome. Both of those are very short novels, and a lot of people have told me that they read them in like one sitting, just the way they read my novellas and short fiction collections. So approaching this piece of what became burnt Sparrow, the burnt Sparrow trilogy, I kind of realized like, oh, this story is so grand and so colossal in scope, like, I really can't tell it in like, 200 300 pages. And the more I thought about it, the more I was like, Oh, it really is giving like, Mike, Michael McDowell Blackwater vibes. Just for those of the listeners who maybe aren't familiar with Michael McDowell's Blackwater, it's this like epic just it was released as like installments in the 1980s when it was originally published, but it's this epic saga of a family in the south and very just very ornately written, beautifully written, but also, like very disturbing elements from there, from that, from that novel, from that, like series of books, is just just so, so grotesque. And I thought, you know, when I approached Titan with the formal proposal of the burnt of what was burnt Sparrow, we kind of went back and forth, and we decided, okay, we're going to release this as three separate books, as like a trilogy. Because the way it was kind of structured was it kind of already lent, kind of lean. Into that narrative format of like, here's part one, here's part two, here's part three. So I kind of, in a way, like, wanted to kind of mimic Michael McDowell's release pattern with how he released Blackwater back in the 80s. You know, he released the first book and then the second. But they released them, from what I understand from the research I've done on on the publication history of that of those books, they released them pretty quickly, one after the other, and with the way publishing is now, the landscape is just different. The market is just a little bit more saturated, I think, than it was back in, like, the 1980s although maybe not entirely, because the 1980s were, you know, a huge boom for horror and probably one of the best decades of the genre. And I feel like we're in like the the 2020s are like the the new 1980s in a lot of way, like, a lot of ways, like, I feel like we're in that just amazing golden age of horror fiction. But regardless, the we decided to release the books, you know, once every year, every September, as kind of like an autumnal treat. And it's kind of like, you know, the more I thought about it, I would have loved to release the books as just one, like, sort of omnibus edition with, like, everything included in it. And, you know, you get the story. You get like, eight or 900 pages of the story that I've written. But the more I thought about it, the more I was like, you know, I really do want this to kind of be like an I A slow IV drip, like, I want this to be like something that you savor, because like the writing, at least from from my standpoint, like what I hope it is the writing, I hope is very like Baroque and very lush and very decadent, so it's not something that you like. Can just binge all at once. I feel like a book like this or books like these, I feel like they're better off to be savored like delicately over the course of maybe two or three years. So that's kind of like the the genesis for the series. But to answer your question about how it's been shifting from short fiction to the longer fiction material. It has been a bit of a challenge, only just because my I feel like my brain is programmed to think in that shorter fiction format and to think like, How can I tell this story as quickly and as effectively as possible, in like as as few amount of words as I possibly can, because editors obviously don't love it when you go over word counts and like anthologies or, you know, even like fiction collections, they don't want it to be like the sprawling, like epic collection. So it has been difficult to kind of rewire my brain and and approach things a little bit more. I don't want to say, like intricately, or like, you know, conceptually, because I feel like my work has been intricate in, like, short fiction and and has grad once I graduated to the longer fiction, I feel like it has maybe gotten even maybe more intricate. But I think a way that I've kind of satisfied my yearning for short fiction is to kind of nest other little stories inside the narrative of the overarching plot. And I've kind of done this by threading different stories that, like characters will tell one another in, especially at dark, I become loathsome. That was one where I like threaded other like I kind of layered other stories into the narrative. And then, of course, we are always tender with our dead. There's like, the story that Rupert's mother tells him over the tape recorder. There's the story that Rupert tells, well, I don't want to spoil it too much, but there's a story at the end that is kind of woven into the fabric of the narrative. So that's kind of my way of like, getting what I really want, which is, I really do love writing short fiction more than anything. And I feel, I don't know, I feel like short fiction is just the ultimate kind of form of horror fiction, because it's, it's very difficult to. Sustained dread and terror for like, four or 500 pages. You know, I, I, at least for me, like, it's difficult for me to, like, capture a reader and and and make them really frightened or unnerved for a long period of time. I think the kind of immersive qualities of short fiction and novellas, I feel like it really lends itself really well to horror, especially so that being said, I'm I'm obviously a very big supporter of of short fiction, short horror fiction,

Michael David Wilson 15:38
and presumably because you're embarking on these more epic stories, you're not having a way to also write short fiction. So, I mean, for the last few years, you've, you know, released back to back remarkable short story collections. But I'm, I'm assuming that the short story collection mode is going to go on hiatus for the time being.

Eric LaRocca 16:08
Yeah, unfortunately, all of my like planned releases into like 2028 they're all novels, and it's, you know, I love writing novels, like, I really do love writing novels, and I love being able to nest shorter stories, like shorter works, into the larger narrative. But that being said, like, there's just not a huge market for short fiction, and there's just not a lot of like public appetite for that, which is really a shame, because I feel like short fiction is a great gateway for a lot of readers to kind of introduce themselves to certain authors. Get a taste for what an author is like. You know, serving what kind of what kind of author and author is, basically, and it's, it's a much bigger commitment to, like, sit down and read like a 300 400 page novel, as opposed to, you know, a short fiction collection that's maybe 200 pages, but each story is perhaps 10 or 15 pages. I think it speaks to our modern way of life, where everything is just so fast paced and everything is just like, go, go, go. It doesn't make sense to me how shorter fiction isn't like a necessity and like a publishing sort of there's like that need for it in publishing doesn't really exist the way I would think it might.

Michael David Wilson 17:48
Yeah, I mean, it feels like about five or so years ago, there was a little bit of an up shoot, or an experiment with Kindle singles, where you'd have these short stories released as standalones. And you know, as you're saying, particularly with things being fast paced, with kind of on demand video streaming services being more popular than ever, you would think, you know what. Why wouldn't you want a bite sized story? Why wouldn't people be kind of lining up to to get a little taste? But it's actually not happening at the moment. And like you're saying,

Eric LaRocca 18:32
I really thought it was going to for a while, like I felt like there were so many novellas, especially in horror, being released that were, like, so provocative and so daring, and I don't know it just it didn't really translate it, you know, the pub, the big publishers still really only want novels.

Michael David Wilson 18:56
There was an app a few years ago. I'm blanking on the name, but I know that people like Max spoof and Paul Tremblay had stories on it and it it was that I don't even know if you know what Hap I'm referring to, but you could kind of subscribe, and it was almost like A Netflix of short stories. It unfortunately went under. But I could imagine that if, if it were to take off, this would be the way to do it, to have this app service where you search for, you know, your different writers, and then you probably pay, you know, a set fee, much like Netflix or Amazon, to get that per month. But, you know, it's obviously difficult to set up, because you've got to get enough writers on board. You've got to get, you know, from a commercial point of view, you need to get high profile offers on. Board too. And, you know, that's the way that you're potentially going to attract people. But, yeah, I'll have to look up what this app was. It was so good, but, and, and it paid right as well. You know, it was a well paying market.

Eric LaRocca 20:19
But it wasn't because there were, like these Amazon shorts that they did, and like they did that. I think this year they did a couple, like Amazon exclusive short stories. And like Grady Hendrix was one of them, Joe Hill was one of them. I think, like Paul Tremblay has been one of the selected authors in the past, but I don't know maybe, is that what you're referring to? Or maybe it's

Michael David Wilson 20:44
something it wasn't that, like, I'm familiar with the Amazon shorts that you're talking about, because this wasn't Amazon. This was a smaller company that that did this, but, yeah, that they are doing the Amazon shorts, but we were only getting like, what, five to eight a year. My appetite is for for more of them, I guess, rather than fantasy booking a service that doesn't exist yet, let's go back to your books and your stories, which most certainly do exist. And I mean, you were talking about how you've almost satisfied this need for writing short stories by putting stories within the longer story. And you know that that certainly came across, it reminded me at times of something a little bit like haunted by Chuck Palahniuk or the Canterbury Tales. And of course, you had what's almost became a trademark in your stories. You had elements of epistolary storytelling as well. So I yeah, I think you kind of satisfied that need for for readers as well. And it it almost added to the unnerving nature and how unsettling it was because you didn't know where are you gonna go next, or what fucked up little story, all kind of this, I was gonna say interlude, but that almost suggests that it's separate. You know, it was within. It all made sense. But, yeah, just anticipating where things were were going to go. You know, speaking of Chuck Palahniuk, he blurbed rich recently, and so I mean that that that seems so apropos, because I've always thought that there's kind of a kinship between what you're doing and what Chuck is doing. And perhaps it has never been so apparent than with the first of the burnt Sparrow books. Because I mean this, I think is your most taboo of all your books, you went, you went to places that we're just not meant to go. You know, society tells us You can't talk about these things. You certainly can't write about them. And you know that there's a story about, let's say the brothers, let's leave it at that. And actually, what you were doing there, there was a big parallel between the, I think, two books back now from Chuck, not forever, but for now. Yeah, and I remember with not forever, but for now. He said, you know, Chuck said he took us right up to the moment, and implied what was going to happen. Well, you took us right up to the moment and then explicitly laid out absolutely everything that did happen.

Eric LaRocca 24:07
Yeah, exactly, exactly. I mean, I am a huge Chuck Palahniuk fan. I mean, he is, like one of my favorite authors of all time. Him, Clive Barker and Dennis Cooper are like the Holy Trinity for me, for like transgressive fiction. So when he blurbs wretch, which is coming out next year in March, it was like I had been I feel like I had spent my whole writing journey, like trying to get his attention, and like now that it finally happened, it was just so gratifying and so fulfilling. But I respect his work so so much, so deeply, and he seems like such a lovely, wonderful person and just so genuine. And very like giving, very helpful, very generous when it comes to helping out, like newer, younger writers. So I like love, love chuck with, like, my whole being, but that said, like I was thinking a lot about his work in particular while writing this book, especially the sequence that you're referring to, because, you know, some so many of his books are really focusing on like the taboo and the the emotional weight of these transgressions and how they affect characters and how they shape identity, and I really wanted this book to kind of explore those things as well. So I thought a lot about Chuck while writing this book. I thought a lot about Dennis Cooper, of course, I thought a lot about Poppy Z bright or, you know, Billy Martin as he's known now. You know, I just, I am such a student of transgressive fiction, and it's my, my true, true love, and I feel really honored to be able to contribute anything to this, this sub genre. You know, I think it's not for everybody. I definitely acknowledge that it's certainly not for for everybody. It's not for those who maybe are a little bit squeamish, or those who are just not looking to be really challenged by their fiction. And but you know, for those who that it's for it really is for them. And I feel like it's such a it's such a difficult process to find the people that the book is for you almost Hap, it's almost like dating. You have to, like, find, you have to like, kind of weed through so many different variables and possibilities before you find like, the right one, like the one that's meant to to read this book, that one that, like, actually cares about what you're trying to say and like the story you're trying to tell. So I don't know, it's, it's difficult, it's, it's, it's not, um, it's not easy to write this sort of material. And then, you know, have have people have opinions about it and kind of like critique it and grade it with like this weird morality checklist. But in a way, those reviewers and those critics and readers like they do actually help the book find the right people, which is really special, I think, in a lot of ways. And I know Chuck, I feel like his books kind of push the same buttons that mine do, and I feel like his reviews are pretty similar to the reviews that I get. So I feel like there is like a kinship there. I feel like there is like a level of, you know, I see, like a lot of my my fiction, I feel like it's talking to his fiction in a lot of ways. And I don't know, I think that's really, that's really rewarding for me as an author, just because I've spent, like so much of my life reading his books and worshiping him.

Michael David Wilson 28:50
Yeah, I definitely think they're in conversation and like I say, there's almost you're providing an answer to what would not forever, but for now, look like if it was explicit rather than implicit, and if it was a much shorter form story, because this is, this is a story within a story. I mean it, it does form part of the wider story, but this is a sequence. And, yeah, you so expertly as well. There were, there were times where you covered the events of an entire year in a few sentences, and it's like, wow, this is how you do it.

Eric LaRocca 29:35
Thank you. Yeah. I mean, I think that's just like me tapping into, like, my short fiction brain where it's like you have to be kind of like, you have to be very selective about what you write and how you convey certain things. And for that sequence in particular, I knew I wanted it to like, hit certain beats at certain moments. And. And have a certain kind of pacing. So I think that's That sequence was especially like rooted in my love of just writing fucked up short fiction.

Michael David Wilson 30:11
And I have to say as well. I mean, I've noticed it in your fiction before, but never has it been so apparent. You know this almost repeated chorus, repeated phrases and words like obviously, it's called, we are always tender with our dead. The word tender and the concept of tending for or being tender is all within this novel and like that. That is, again, that is something that Chuck does a lot. He's got these repeated choruses and these phrases, but, but I guess as well, the more the more fiction of yours that I read, the more I get to appreciate how this is fits into the bigger picture of your Canon, because you're also you were repeating vile, you were repeating wretch, and that there's something satisfying as a fan of your work to just see you know your other novels, being in Conversation with one another and and you you exploring these concepts again and again in a very satisfying way that then adds to the overall enjoyment, although some people might think is the word enjoyment, the the overall satisfaction and the artistry of the piece.

Eric LaRocca 31:39
Thank you. That means a lot. I mean, I think some people find the repetition, like not as not as they're not as appreciative as you are with the repetition. But, you know, that's their problem. I love any sort of moment I can, like, be referential to something else, and especially like referential to my own work. But I'm also like referencing, like a lot of work that I really appreciate from, like, just horror in the past, like, you know, Clive Barker, Phillip Ridley, who, like, I just am obsessed with his work. He's a very well known like, British playwright and filmmaker and author. I love his work. I love Sarah Kane, who's a player was a playwright back in like, the 90s. So, like, I love referencing material that I'm obsessed with regardless, but I do love, like, calling out other words and phrases that are, like in my other books, as kind of like a reprise of, like a kind of like, like a chorus, like what you said, like, it's just repeating the same sort of idea, sort of those notions. I think it's, it's, I mean, I keep doing it, so obviously I'm a fan of it, but I try to do it. I try to do it sparingly, so that it's, it doesn't like aggravate too much. Those who like, maybe aren't as big a fan of it as I am. But I think everything, I mean, we start out in this industry, this like insane industry that we're all in the publishing industry, or like the arts in general, we start out as being a fan, you know, we start out as being like an admirer of the work that exists already. So we start out admiring work by like Stephen King and Clive Barker and Robert R McCammon and Michael McDowell. You know, we admire these people, and we want to create and sculpt and tell our own stories in our own ways. And I think there's no bigger honor that I can think of than to, like, reference something else, some something that someone else has written in your own work, or, you know, reference your own work in your work. I know Richard Lehman did that quite a bit. He was like a splatter punk author from like, the 1980s and 1990s and I love his fiction a lot. And you know, that's also why I dedicate a lot of my books to authors who have, like, influenced me, or have shown me, like, a lot of kindness ever since I kind of came into the industry. So for this book in particular, I dedicated it to Brian Evenson, who is one of, probably one of the sweetest, most gentlest guys you could ever come across. And he's also like one of the most skilled and. And talented writers of of weird, uncanny, unnerving fiction. But he's shown me like so much kindness ever since I first met him a few years ago. And I really wanted to, like repay him in a way for, for that, that generosity, that that kind of beautiful kindness that he showed me. And you know, I hope, I hope he accepts, accepts the the kindness, the way I intended to be accepted. But yeah, I've done that with a few books now, like at dark I've become loathsome, was dedicated to Daniel Krause. The skin was once mine and other disturbances was dedicated to Paul. So it's definitely like a recurring thing that I really love to I love to acknowledge the people that I do like to reference in my fiction, and then in the interviews that I give about the fiction that I'm writing, because I feel like it's, it's important to it's important to, like, spotlight other creators and and kind of clue your audience into Where you, like, get your inspiration from and how you source all of this like, craziness inside, like the maelstrom of your thoughts. Like, I feel like it's really important to spotlight others during times like these, you know.

Michael David Wilson 36:35
And we're so many supportive writers and artists, and we're so many people who influence your work and inspire you. How do you decide who to dedicate each book to? And is it more looking at who is a good match for that particular book, or is it more looking at who is perhaps helping you out or inspiring you, or is just on your mind at the time that you're writing the dedication. So I guess is it, is it more matching them with the book, or is it just matching them with where your mind is at at that point in your life?

Eric LaRocca 37:20
I guess it depends, but most of the time, it's usually like matching them with the book and what I think the book is in conversation with. So for this book in particular, we are always tender with our dead. Like I said, I dedicated it to Brian Evenson. I don't necessarily think it's on the level of like Brian Evenson, quality type writing, because he is just like a master wordsmith, and just one of our greatest story living storytellers. We have that being said, I was thinking quite a bit about his novel, father of lies, while I was writing the first draft of we are always tender with our dead. And for those of you who don't know about father of lies, it was I believe Brian Evans, since first novel in like, the late 90s, early 2000s and it's, it's this depraved sort of look at a like minister in the in the Mormon church, and these like horrible goings on, and it's really all about, like human cruelty and depravity. And I really did find myself thinking quite a bit about that book, a lot while working on this novel in particular. And I thought, you know, Brian obviously has been such a dear friend, has been such a kind supporter of my work. I feel like maybe these books aren't in conversation directly with one another, but I feel like the overall vibe and the overall like esthetic and the mood and the reaction that I'm kind of striving for with reaching readers, I feel like it's maybe on par With something like father of lies, which is just such a fascinating book, and so just so beautifully done and but also so depraved. And like, I definitely cannot recommend it to everyone, just because it's so unsettling. And so not for everyone, but I feel like that's what makes his fiction so palpable and so exciting. His his fiction is just so raw and, like unflinching, especially that book in particular is, like, very raw and very upsetting to read. So I really. Thought that this book in particular was like, in conversation with father of lies, just like indirectly, not like totally, like speaking the same sort of language, but definitely, like in the same room, like talking, and yeah, I mean, that's kind of how I decided to dedicate this book to him. I mean, previous books like, like the skin was one's mind and other disturbances. I had read, obviously, Paul's collection, the beast you are. I had read his other short story collection, growing things, and I was really enamored with his short fiction, and I felt like the stories in the skin was one's mind. I feel like they were also like, in that weird liminal space of conversation with with one another, just like trying to communicate with one another, maybe not like directly, but like slightly indirectly. It's like a weird sort of, it's difficult to describe, but I guess it is, like kind of based off vibes, but also like trying to see, like, how I compare this, like what I'm writing with who's out there, like writing interesting fiction that really speaks to me. So, yeah,

Michael David Wilson 41:23
see now what I really want to see is just have this resource where writers say, Look, if you like this book by me, here's another book that I think it's in conversation with, or here's another free books that I think is in conversation with by other authors, because I think that would be just so fascinating. But I I mean, of course, if people listen to enough interviews, they can glean that. But I want you know, here's the one page, yeah, here's the easy resource that doesn't include sifting through hours of conversation. But I, I suppose as well, like you know, when you admire other writers so much, I can see how there's a reluctance to say, Oh, this is like this, because you don't want to kind of appear arrogant and things like that, but it would, it would be so fascinating. And I think,

Eric LaRocca 42:28
I think it's important to spotlight, yeah, other authors, like other creators, and you know, if you enjoyed this book that I've written, I feel like you'd enjoy these other books that, like really shaped me. I my identity, and shaped me as a reader and as a writer. So I think that's really important.

Michael David Wilson 42:49
And I think as well, when we respect and we enjoy an author, we want to know, what did they like, even if it's actually completely different. So I mean, the way that I the way that I discovered both Colton Melick and Sarah Langan so completely different authors, was because Jack Ketchum recommended them both to me. Wow. Because I don't you know if anything that Jack Ketchum likes I want to read, and what completely different, but accomplished an amazing office, Carlton Malek and and Sarah langen,

Eric LaRocca 43:31
Oh, totally. I thought a lot about Jack Ketchum while writing this book. Too. Surprisingly enough, like you brought him up, but like, especially his books, like off season and the girl next door. I mean, these are all about, like, human cruelty, really, and especially the girl next door. So I definitely thought a lot about about his work and his writing and and how he approached certain narratives. And he was definitely one to never shy away from debauchery and like viciousness and all those like unpleasant things that so many people are afraid to actually discuss. So yeah, I thought a lot about him while while working on this book, too. Yeah.

Michael David Wilson 44:21
Well, it's very clear, particularly due to a certain section or a certain thread of the story, to see why you would have thought of Jack Ketchum and especially the girl next door. Now, something that you said earlier was when you pitched it when you proposed it to Titan that you know, you came in with this 900 page year, and then it's like, okay, we're going to split it into three books. So I want to know when you and your agent pitched it. Did you. Suggest, look, this can be released as one, or it can be released as free. Or did Titan say, Hang on a minute, we need to actually, you know, divvy this up into different parts, and then, knowing that it would be three books instead of one book, did that change how you had to approach, or did you then have to rewrite it so that they made more sense as, I mean, not not necessarily even standalones, but just as complete stories. This is the end of a book. This would be a satisfying way to end. Because I think, yeah, if you've got part two in in a book compared to the book literally ending in another book is coming out, it may affect how that first part ends.

Eric LaRocca 45:53
Yeah, no, definitely. The way I outlined the novel, the series, rather, um, I had broken it up into three parts immediately, like, from the get so there was, like that structure kind of already in place when I sent it to Titan. And it was kind of like a mutual decision, like, Okay, we're gonna do this as, like an official trilogy. It's gonna be like three separate books. But there was at one point when I was, like, really kind of lobbying for, like, one one edition, where it's like just one book, one, like door stopper of a book. But we kind of all, like collectively at the end, we agreed, like, okay, it probably makes much more sense to divvy them up into three separate sections. That being said, the editing process for this kind of a book, a book series like this, has been really fascinating because it's so much more complex, and so it's so much more dense than I'm used to with, like short fiction. So it's like keeping track of all these separate threads that I'm laying the groundwork for in like book one, and then carrying that over into book two. And then I actually just turned in my developmental edits for the second book earlier today, so I'm really happy about that. But there were elements in Book Two that I completely like altered from the initial outline. So that's going to obviously impact book three that I now have to kind of like rewrite a little bit and restructure, not so much so that it like changes the vibe of the whole book. But it's definitely like, I made certain choices in the second book that I need to like answer in the third book now, and certain edits were made that if I don't acknowledge them in the third book, readers will obviously be really let down. So it's, it's been, like a really colossal undertaking, and I wonder, I wonder how different it would have been if we just edited the whole series as one thing, as opposed to three separate things. Um, that being said, it's kind of opened me up to, like all of these new possibilities, and I've gone down different paths, especially in the second book, but I wasn't expecting to go down, and it's made it for me. It's made it even more interesting and more compelling than when I originally approached Titan about a project like this, like I went into places that are so much darker and so much more taboo than the first book, even with the second book. And I don't want us to get ahead of ourselves, because I'm sure I'll be back to talk about the second book at some time. But yeah, it's been, it's been wonderful, actually, like to work on a book, on a series on this, this giant, mammoth book broken up into three separate sections. Like, it's been a joy to work on it so methodically and so, like, slowly over the course of several years, where I feel like if maybe we had approached it, where, like, we released just one, like omnibus edition, with all three parts included together, I don't know if it would have, it wouldn't have turned out the same, you know, it would have been a completely different book. So I'm actually really happy with how the trilogy is, like, progressing now, especially now that I've worked on the second book, like, and that's finished, and then, you know, the third book, the first draft of it, was finished a while ago. But that being said, I need to go back and, like, rewrite a lot of elements. That I made changes in book two. But that being said, it's been, it's been such a joy and such an honor, and it's been really great to work with two editors at Titan, as opposed to just my single editor that I usually work on for like all my books there. So I've had the pleasure of working with Kathe at Titan for a while, and now I'm working with Kathe and George. And George is like the managing editor, and he edits like Steven Graham Jones, and he's just like one of the coolest and most like thoughtful and most insightful editors I've ever worked with, and he really like they. I mean, they both do. They both give me, like, really great feedback and provide, like, such thoughtful discussion of my work where it's like, what, what are you trying to say? Like, how can we do this better? Like, how can we improve this? But they also give me like ways to improve it, whereas they're not just, like asking me questions and saying, All right, go figure it out. Like they're thoughtfully asking and then, like positioning certain like options and certain like ways to make it better. So they're giving me, like, almost like a cheat sheet, in a way, like, here's what you could do like, and they're, they're just, they're good to like, bounce ideas off of. And I feel like George was such a crucial component of why the first book, I feel like got such really great trade reviews from like, Publishers Weekly and library journal and book lists, like, it got like, two starred reviews, I think, like, one from Library Journal, one from book list. But I feel like it was, and Kathe even said this to me the other day. She was like, you know, I feel like this book was, like, one of your most well reviewed books that you've published with us. And I feel like that is true. Like I feel like, it has, like, leveled me up in a lot of ways, like I feel like, but I think the slowing down and like, distilling it into one book, as opposed to one giant epic, really helped me navigate the editorial process. Even like, even better, and just like much more, like smoothly

Michael David Wilson 52:24
and on the note that you're working with two editors as opposed to one, I'm wondering, what does that logistically look like? You know, are they both looking at it, giving their notes and then giving it to you? Or do you get a kind of calf pass and then a George pass like this sounds brilliant and also potentially chaotic, because then, then what's happening if, if George and Kathe have a slightly different note, are you getting a document back, and there's, there's a few pages of an argument, what's going on here?

Eric LaRocca 53:03
No, it's been so seamless, like it's there's never. They always. They always provide, like, really cogent, coherent notes together, and they work really well together. There has not been one issue with like George giving a note and then Kathe, like contradicting it and giving a different note. Like they they discuss, they read the book, discuss together, compile their notes together, and then send me one document of what the notes, what they want fixed, and that's kind of how they they operate. And it's been like so flawless, and how it's how it's been like designed. I feel like this book series in particular, they've really put a lot of like effort and goodwill into it, and I hope more people read it. That's what I really would love, like I would love more readers to discover burnt Sparrow. I think, you know, it's a lot to ask people to read two books from the same author in one year. So I had a dark eye become loathsome come out earlier this year, in January, and now burnt Sparrow Book One is out. You know, two books a year like it's possible, but it's it's difficult to navigate, and sometimes people get confused, and they don't know which book is which. Like they don't know they're maybe they're not paying close enough attention. They don't know if, like, this is the burnt Sparrow book or if this is the standalone like, you know, but yeah, I feel like so much love and care and effort has gone into this book series so far, so I would really love to get more people like aware of.

Michael David Wilson 55:00
It, you know? Yeah, I understand the point about, you know, perhaps the reluctance to read two books per year by the same author. But, I mean, the good thing is, I mean that they're almost, whilst there are thematic similarities, they're almost polar opposites in terms of delivery and mode and what they are. I mean, at dark I become loathsome, is almost a short story. I mean, it's a book, but it's very much. It could be a play. It can be kind of, this is a stage play, whereas, you know, if that's your stage play, then burnt Sparrow is your opera. Everything into it.

Eric LaRocca 55:48
So I want there to be a burnt Sparrow opera one day.

Michael David Wilson 55:52
That would be amazing and come with so many explicit content warnings, but I will be so I

Eric LaRocca 56:01
want to watch one day. I want to see.

Michael David Wilson 56:07
I mean, I think too as well. You know, when I think as authors, we have this concern, are we giving people too much by releasing two books a year? But as as readers, when we love an author and an artist, it's like, yeah, give me more. Please do that. So I

Eric LaRocca 56:26
feel that way too. I mean, one of my favorite artists, my musical artist, released two albums this year. Her name is Ethel Kane. She put out an album in January called perverts, and then another album later in the year called Willoughby Tucker always love you, and they're like polar opposite vibes. Like one is very like dark brooding, like drone music. And then Willoughby Tucker is this kind of like, still dark has darker elements, but maybe like, a little bit more ethereal, and just like, just stunning. Both of them are stunning, but I write so much, that's the problem. Like, I am always writing. I'm always creating. I'm always at my desktop, writing, typing away, creating something, and because that's when I'm happiest, like, I'm happiest when I'm creating and writing new stories. So it's really difficult for me to just, like, sit on my hands, which my agent does tell me to do quite a bit lately, just because I keep getting, like, pursued by other publishers. And you know, we would love to work with you on this, and we'd love to have you like work, like write a novel for us, and like commissions and short story invites, and which is great, like, I appreciate all of it, but, you know, I just don't want to reach a point where, like, it's too much, not only for me, but for Like, the readers, because my material is, like, really dark and upsetting. So I think two books is like the most I could probably do in a year.

Michael David Wilson 58:10
Yeah, I feel like, I mean, this is a dilemma that quite a lot of us have, particularly if we're, I suppose, fast writers, which, there's almost a reluctance to say that, because a fast writer doesn't mean that you're rushing it. It doesn't mean that it's not considered, but it just, I guess, just the absolute enthusiasm and obsession that we have means that the volume of words and works are going to easily several times over exceed this, this bizarre one book per year modeled at some point, somebody set up and decided, but I I do think having that dilemma. And you know, Stephen Graham Jones, I think, has it, because he's a very prolific writer. I think Josh Malerman has it. And it does seem to be that the two books per year is that kind of sweet spot for for the, I guess, most, to put out and to still be effective. So and also, like you say, if you're doing something where each book is operating on a different level, you know, you've got your longer one, you've got your shorter one, you've got your drone album, you know, whatever it is, just if there's a contrast, and that makes it more acceptable. And for some reason, at least in my mind as well. And I don't know if this is just my bizarre way of thinking, but once, once the calendar changes to a different year is anything goes, so you've got reps. Coming out in March. This one burn Sparrow was out in September, but almost to me, it could have been out in December, and it would have been fine, because now it's a different calendar year. So yeah, I mean, if you did last day of December and first day of January. It might be the contradiction, but I think even December February is is completely acceptable. There's some psychological shift and new beginning. And I suppose, practically for rewards and any other sort of consideration, it kind of resets after a year.

Eric LaRocca 1:00:46
Anyway. Yeah, it does. I don't know. I feel like two a year is manageable for me right now, and that's still with me sitting on my hands quite a bit and not putting out more because, I mean, you have to remember, a lot of my works are still somewhat short. Like burnt Sparrow Book One is 75,000 words. At dark, I become loathsome was 45,000 words. So at dark was like a very short novel. Burnt Sparrow Book One is a lot longer, but it's still, I'm still not writing, like, 100, 100,000 word novels, you know, I feel like, I feel like that's yet to come for me. I feel like, you know, maybe further down the line.

Michael David Wilson 1:01:36
And on that note, and we talk about, you know, conflicting books and awards and things like that. So with one being 45,000 words and another being 75,000 words, this means that you're in this situation, and I think it might be the first time in your career where you've got two books that will be eligible for the same award. You know, they'll both be up for consideration in in a novel of the year category, and pretty much every major horror and fiction award. So is, I don't know. Is that a funny place to be? Is it something you even think about a lot is the is the ideal situation that actually both will be nominated, but for different awards. So you've got, maybe, like a Bram Stoker for for burnt Sparrow, you've got at dark I become loathsome, is in the Shirley Jackson awards. What does one even do? And what do you even do when you have to promote award season?

Eric LaRocca 1:02:47
Yeah, it's difficult. It's something I do think about quite a bit, just because it is so like impossible to manage, because it is two novels vying for like, the same category. And obviously, I feel like this year was just like one of the best years for horror we've ever seen. I feel like to 2025, was like on crack when it came to horror, like we just had, like the best, the most like exciting releases published this year. So it's like very stiff competition. That being said, I think what would make sense to me going forward, would I would love to have, like, one novella a year and then one full length novel? I feel like that would be like the perfect balance that being said, everything I have contracted from now until 2028 they're all full length novels. So they're all like, over there, every single one is at least 65,000 words. So they're like, usually in the between like 65 to like, 75,000 words. So that being said like it is difficult to kind of like operate that way. And, you know, think about like award season, but obviously at the end of the day, like awards are wonderful, and they're they're great, their respect from peers and their validation, but they're certainly not why I sit down every day and write at the computer. They're not why I, you know, find myself obsessed with telling these kinds of stories. It's amazing when you are recognized and when you are validated, but it's not, it's not like the most important thing ever, right?

Michael David Wilson 1:04:43
Yeah, I think sometimes we can, if we're not careful, concentrate on the wrong things. We can look at so called metrics, we can look at sales, we can look at reviews. We can aspire to have reviews. In certain publications, such as the New York Times, but, or to get these awards, but, you know, for contentment, or some, some type of fulfillment, because I, I don't want to use the word happiness, because it's so fucking fleeting anyway. And perhaps illusory, but I, I think that we need to really recapture that childhood joy, or that reason that we started telling stories to begin with. Why did we first sit down at the keyboard or at the notepad. Why did we start telling stories? What was it that lit us up? And that's got to be what keeps us going.

Eric LaRocca 1:05:51
Really, that's what keeps me going. I mean, it's that, like what you said, that child like joy and fascination with like the dark and the macabre, and, like telling these stories, and just like my obsession with it, you know, I just am, like, so motivated and so obsessed with writing about unpleasantness in the world and, like, human cruelty, like I just, I don't know what I would do with myself if I wasn't able to Write about it, and that's why it's it's so painful to sit on my hands so much and not, you know, release as much as I want to release. But that being said, like two books a year is more than fair. But I'm just, like, so driven and so motivated that I just cannot stop writing.

Michael David Wilson 1:06:42
I thank you so much for listening to Eric LaRocca on this is horror join us again next time for the second and final part of the conversation. But if you would like to get that and every other episode ahead of the crowd, become our patreon@patreon.com forward slash This is horror. You can also submit questions for each and every This is horror guest. Coming up soon, we will be chatting to Dean Koonce and Ronald Malfi, so if you have a question for either of them, do consider becoming a Patreon? Okay, before I wrap up a quick advert break

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Michael David Wilson 1:08:48
Now, before I go, I wanted to remind you that we have been recently pushing out more video content on our social media channels, particularly Tiktok, YouTube and Instagram. So if you want to get video clips from the podcast as little pick me ups and bits of inspiration, do follow us on social media. At this is horror podcast, we've recently put up clips from Joe Hill, David dasmalchian, Delilah S Dawson and Josh Malerman. There are plenty of other videos that will be coming soon. You can also see clips from our archives, from guests such as Dean Koontz, Chuck Palahniuk, and our guest for today's episode, Eric Larocca, alright. Well, that about does it for another episode of This is horror. I'll see you in the next one for part two with Eric Larocca. But until then, take care of yourselves. Be good to one another. Read horror. Keep on right. Exciting and have a great, great Day.