Michael David Wilson 0:20
Welcome to this is horror, a podcast for readers, writers and creators. I'm Michael David Wilson and every episode, alongside my co host Bob Pastorella, we chat with the world's best writers about writing, life lessons, creativity and much more. Today we are chatting to CJ Leede, the author of may fly an American Rapture. Now not only do we dive deep into both of those books, but we also talk about her early life lessons, creative journey and writing routine. And it was such a tremendous pleasure to chat with CJ that we will be welcoming her back again very soon to talk about her forthcoming book headlights. So another conversation that I think you are going to get so much out of. But before we get to it, a quick advert break,

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RJ Bayley 2:16
It was as if the video had unzipped my skin slunk inside my tapered flesh and become one with me.

Bob Pastorella 2:25
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Michael David Wilson 2:55
Okay with that said, Here it is. It is. CJ Leede on this is horror.

CJ, welcome to this is horror.

CJ Leede 3:11
Thank you. So glad to be here.

Michael David Wilson 3:14
Yeah, it is a long time coming, because we've wanted to talk to you for a few years now, and we've been going back and forth with your publicist, but now finally, it's happening,

CJ Leede 3:29
have we? Oh, that's crazy. Okay, well, I'm glad to finally be here.

Michael David Wilson 3:33
Yeah, I like that. You don't. You're not even sure about it either. You're like, Wait, we didn't talk.

CJ Leede 3:41
I know I kind of thought we did okay, but some of us met in Austin and, you know, yeah,

Michael David Wilson 3:51
well, as we haven't spoken before, what I'd like to do is go all the way back to the beginning of your life, because what I want to know is what some of the early life lessons were that you learned growing up. Wow.

CJ Leede 4:10
Well, it's a good day to ask. I think I was born on an Ash Wednesday. Today is Ash Wednesday. Not that I practice that anymore, but things, things that I was like, taught young, or things that I Okay, probably the biggest thing is so I grew up in Texas, and my family was very big on, Like, can do attitude and doing things and so very supportive of art and everything else, but it's like you have to be kind of doing things at all times. And something I was taught as a kid that I never realized was really like a huge gift that as an adult, I realized is very rare and amazing. Amazing is I was really taught that if I just worked hard enough at anything, I would probably succeed. And I think that really kind of shaped who I am, because it really can instill this feeling that like, Okay, you're going to get knocked down a million times, but if you just don't stop, it eventually will work out. And that really worked in my favor. But I was like a rough and tumble kid. I don't know, I think it was, like physically delicate, but like, I wanted to be like a tomboy, and so I was always trying to keep up running around and things. But usually was like poking around in the creek, catching tadpoles, that kind of thing.

Michael David Wilson 5:39
And in terms of having these values of hard work instilled in you from an early age. How did that factor in to your writing? I mean, were you writing from a young age, and was there almost a conflict, or were your parents like, hang on a minute. You got these cures to be doing. What are you doing with that writing?

CJ Leede 6:05
No, I think my parents really encouraged me to try everything and and really just kind of see what, see what worked. And again, that was like a big gift. I was an only child, so there was definitely, like, a lot of room for me to to figure out my stuff. I, you know, I thought I was more of a performer as a kid. I liked dancing and all those dancing and acting and all those things, and they were very supportive of that. But chores were, like, a part of life too. It was just kind of Yeah, like, as long as I wasn't too idle. But I think that has translated into my work a lot, and it took me, so I'm jumping ahead, but it took me so many years to be able to get an agent, to be able to get published, and it was freaking brutal. And I really think all that kind of early life stuff, like, really kind of kept me going, which is, like, just don't stop. It'll, you know, just as long as I don't stop, like, sort of statistically, something should happen over time. And then luckily, it did.

Michael David Wilson 7:14
Yeah, and if I understand correctly, you didn't realize you were writing horror until a teacher kind of pointed out to you that what you're doing is actually horror.

CJ Leede 7:27
Yeah, in my, like, mid 20s, and I didn't even really think I wanted to be a writer until my 20s, but yeah, I had never read a Stephen King. I'd never read anything. I read Library at Mount Char, which I didn't think of as horror. I thought of it as, like fantasy, and it was my favorite book. And it was funny for this teacher, this professor, to be like, I think you should be reading horror novels. And I was like, oh, no, no, I can't handle that stuff. It's too scary for me. And then turns out I was totally wrong.

Michael David Wilson 8:02
Yeah, that's so fascinating. Because, I mean, throughout your books, there are so many horror nods and horror influences, and so you wouldn't think that. You hadn't, you know, read a Stephen King book until your 20s.

CJ Leede 8:18
Well, sometimes I think that can help, right? Like, it's almost like it's easier for me to write about locations that aren't the places I've lived the longest, because you have the outsider's perspective. So coming to it late, I didn't really have like, a lifetime of relationship with, like, the shining, for example, or, you know, any of these stories like, it was just sort of, I saw it all as an adult laid out in front of me, and it was magical and a very cool, very cool experience.

Michael David Wilson 8:51
And I wonder too, how did film factor into your childhood? What were the movies that you were watching from a young age and when, if at all, did horror come into play?

CJ Leede 9:03
This is probably where the horror snuck in. I was very into Rocky Horror Picture Show like that was my favorite. I wasn't really sheltered at all as a kid. I did grow up in church all the time, but I honestly think that was more like child care than, you know, although my my family still go, but, uh, yeah, I loved Rocky Horror. Loved it. I loved tremors and Mars Attacks. So it's like, looking back, I'm like, Well, yeah, I think it was always there a little bit. My dad was really into Hitchcock. You know, my dad does this thing. He tells everybody, still Texas, man. He's like, I don't know how she got into this horror thing. His favorite movie when I was a kid was psycho. And he would always be like, Look at the stills and look at, look at how Hitchcock did all these shots, you know, one after another. That was so there was always something around. The monsters or whatever. But it just for some reason, like there's a disconnect, you know, people kind of make up their minds that that's not really horror. You know, saw is horror, or the ring is horror, or whatever, you know,

Michael David Wilson 10:15
yeah, I think it's just having a narrow definition, rather than an all encompassing definition of horror but, and I think most people do, yeah, yeah, no, I think so. And I mean, Psycho is one of the original, in some senses, horror films. I mean, of course, you know, if you go way back, the Nosferatu is an original horror film. But in terms of, really, I guess, uh, paving the way for the modern era, it's Psycho and it's Robert block and it's Hitchcock,

CJ Leede 10:50
and they're so good, yeah, they're so freaking good and suspenseful. And, yeah, those are awesome.

Michael David Wilson 10:58
Well, I knew we would have to go here at some point, and it's under 10 minutes. But I have to ask, how did religion play a part in your upbringing?

CJ Leede 11:10
Yeah, so my family is very Catholic, and it's it's not just cultural. It's definitely like practicing, but it always like terrified me. I think I was a very literal thinker as a kid, and so I would go to Sunday school and church and choir and all these places, and they would tell us these stories of like, if you think a sinful thought, God and the devil and demons and angels and everybody Jesus have all heard it, and now you have eternal consequences, unless you go in this small room and confess it to this, like, old man and, yeah, it scared the shit out of me. I also had, like, across from my bed. It's funny because, like, I grew up in Austin. And, like, Austin, back in the day, was, like, so small town, like, music town. It was so cool. And I my parents were in the musician scene. It was like, that was really cool. But like, I also had this, like, crucifix painting, or, you know, Christ on the cross across from my bed, and it was like, He's bleeding and starving, and it's a black background, and it just like was terrifying, and it was like the last thing I saw every night before I went to sleep. So anyway, was convinced I was the most sinful, definitely going to hell, definitely like everything. I was questioning everything I wasn't supposed to be. And I had one very religious parent, one parent who is an artist and didn't really care about it, but it just it was, it was a weird it was always there, but I always knew I was outside it. If that makes sense,

Michael David Wilson 12:54
no, it makes total sense. And actually, you mentioning the painting of Christ has given me a kind of flashback to my childhood. So I was brought up in a Christian household. Happy to say, I've recovered from that now, but I had, I had these recurring nightmares when I was, like 567, years old, and I'd see Christ on the cross bleeding, and then I just hear these voices being like, you did this. This is your fault. You made him suffer. He did it for you. Really, I should make some sort of weird short film about it, because then, like, it would zoom in and get closer and closer to this bloody, gruesome cries, and the voices will get louder, and then I'd wake up feeling quite bad about myself. I'm not sure that there's a question attached to this, but you gave me

CJ Leede 13:55
amazing you should. I don't know if you should make that film. It's like, it seems like too real to me, yeah, but it sounds amazing. And so like exactly evocative of that experience. And, yeah, man, wow. We it really, it really stays with you. It looks like you can get rid of it, but there's always that little bit that's just buried deep in here

Michael David Wilson 14:19
somewhere, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Bob Pastorella 14:23
It's funny because it took me a while to realize I grew up Catholic as well, and I had one, you know, my mom still goes to church. Why not you go to church? And I'm like, Why don't they arrest pedophiles priests? But, you know, anyway, but, and that's, that's like, one reason, but another reason that I quit going to church was when I was in college, and I would spend time in the library and mostly reading, like esoteric books and stuff like that, because they just had all the stuff that I never could find. And I'm like, wow, it's all here. And I'm like, one day I was in the library, and I just realized. That go into that mass. I'm like, that's an occult ritual. Catholic mass is a fucking occult ritual. I'm like, I don't, I don't know if I want to be part of a cult. And so that was kind of like, one of the things that I just I stopped going because I'm like, this is this distance did after that. It didn't feel right, you know. And I'm like, it's, it's like, you know, the thing occult is hidden, esoteric and mysticism and all that, every culture has a religion. So even even you can almost say that being secular is like a religion, you know. So it's, yeah, you know. So it's just, I get exactly where you're coming from. And my dad was the artist one, so he was always like, you ain't gotta go to church and get when you're 16, get you a job. You have to work on Sundays. You have to go to damn church, you know.

CJ Leede 16:00
Wow, yeah. It's, I think the difference and what the whole sin thing, sin and shame and the sort of like, in order to atone, there's this chain of command, you know, that you report to to be absolved, is like, such a beautiful authority scenario, you know, I think it's really like, it's very effective and, yeah, not to in this fun day and age, but yeah, it's, it's a fascinating, it's a fascinating thing, having to, having to, sort Of like, beg forgiveness of so many men.

Bob Pastorella 16:41
It's, it's like, one degree away from being bureaucratic, if you think about it. I mean, it's almost like, Well, no, no, you can't confess that to me. When you have to, you have to confess that up a little higher. That's a more serious offense. So let's get the forms ready, and we'll get you to the bishop. And I was like, what, what's is the bishop here? Do I have to go? I have to set an appointment to go talk to the bishop about I lusted. Oh yeah, I lost it again, damn it. What are we gonna do about this?

CJ Leede 17:16
You can confess anything away in the church. No.

Michael David Wilson 17:20
This is true, that's it. When you can confess anything, then there are no real consequences, and then, you know, bad actions become almost meaningless. There's there's no punishment, just you do a few Hail Mary's or you say sorry for what you've done. So no accountability.

CJ Leede 17:46
Well, I suppose they think it's the punishment is done after, you know, not by not by them, but yeah, it's, uh, well, here we all are somehow, yeah, we've made it right.

Michael David Wilson 18:01
I want to know what was the moment, or what were the moments when you started questioning religion, and then equally, when did it graduate to you realizing, actually, this is dangerous.

CJ Leede 18:18
I do remember specific moments so there was like one was in Sunday school, and I put this in American rapture, but one of the Sunday school teachers said, specifically, little girls are born into more sin than little boys. And I remember just like looking around the room and thinking like, That can't be, right, you know, like, if there's, if we're all born into sin, wouldn't it at least be, like, equal or and I raised my hand and I said, really, like, is that? And she said, Yes. And, man, there were, there were actually a few. But I think the biggest thing for me is that when I thought about it, because I am kind of a literal thinker, so I took everything to be just truth, right, like I listened. I was not I was not allowed to color or play games in church, like I was only child. I was I wasn't talking to anybody. I was just listening, and I would actually read the stories. And I believed it all when I was really young. And I thought about it, and I just thought it didn't sit right with me, this idea that first of all, if anyone hadn't heard of Jesus, like just happened to be born in the wrong place or the wrong circumstances that they wouldn't have the opportunity, or the same opportunity, to, sort of like, go to heaven automatically. So that seemed weird to me. Two, that if you did things wrong, you have like, 80 years on earth at most. Or whatever. Maybe now, like 100 we're living a little longer. And then if you don't do things right in those 100 years and follow all the rules, then you have, what, just eternity to be punished for it. And the punishing felt like really crazy to me, just like, what kind of everybody always said, God is good, God is kind. And I'm like, it sounds like God just is burning everybody alive all the time. I don't know. Like, it sounds like God is actually the opposite. He is, like, super punishing and super judging and super frightening. And I think that just, like, didn't feel right. And I don't know if there was a single moment where I was like, No, this is not it. But I hated going to church. I was always scared of it. I would cry and kick and scream and, you know, it was like, a whole thing. But I also didn't like that we had to dress up. I felt like, I remember being told that, you know, you had to, like, really look nice. And I remember being told that that was, like, what God would want. And I was like, I just don't think God would care. Like, God gave me shoulders. Like, why do my shoulders have to be covered? Like, what's so wrong with shoulders? All of the, you know, just like, probably so many small things that just didn't feel right to me. And a lot of trying so hard not to be like political although it's impossible. A lot of people who called themselves Christians, who were so angry and had a lot of hate toward a lot of types of people, and that didn't seem to match to me what we were being taught, which was that you're not supposed to hate people and you're supposed to welcome people and like, that was Jesus's whole thing. So anyway, that's, uh, it was all the things. But I loved the incense. I loved the I mean, I think ultimately, like, the Catholic thing is super like, I mean, it's got that sort of Gothic, amazing, you know, esthetic, at least. So there's, there's a lot of fun with that.

Michael David Wilson 22:13
I mean, luckily you can walk away from Catholicism and still burn incense and still have all the Gothic architecture that you desire,

CJ Leede 22:23
so true, we all win.

Michael David Wilson 22:28
And I mean, I understand that for a long time, you were, you know, even after recovering from religion, let's say you were afraid to say the word demon, and you didn't watch the exorcist. I don't even know if you have watched The Exorcist yet.

CJ Leede 22:47
I might have watched. I don't know if I have, like, it's funny, I even get a little flutter. Yeah, when I was writing American, I wrote American rapture over like, 10 years, which I'm sure you've heard me say, but yeah, like, even in the writing of it in my 20s, like saying, writing the word demon, so much, I was like, Am I just inviting this in, you know? And this was after living in New York City forever, like, not being religious, but it just, it sticks. It sticks. I'm good now I write horror, I'm not worried about that now. No, I'm worried about real life stuff. But, yeah, I don't think you're going to be possessed by feeling attracted to somebody. I don't think that is a thing that's going to happen in this world.

Michael David Wilson 23:35
And do you ever have any kind of lingering, I suppose fear of God, or just lingering hang ups from that religious background, because, I mean, you know, even for me, even though I'm like, Well, I'm recovered, there can sometimes be at your weakest moments, like, what if, what if it's actually true, Or, what if God is judging me right now, what if I'm going to hell?

CJ Leede 24:05
You know, it's like, it's funny, because I have a lot of Christians in my family, obviously, as we've said, I also have a lot of hunters in my family, and I'm not, I'm not being prescriptive, but like, you know, I don't eat meat. If there's a spider in my house, I save it. I don't kill bugs. Like, I take them outside. You know, I try really hard to be a good person in this life. And I think if there is sorry, that's, that's my dog. If there is a God who really has a real issue with how I'm living, then there was probably no shot for me anyway, you know what I mean. So I think there's no pleasing God like that. So might as well just try and be a good person in any way I can in this life and. And see what happens. And it's that joke everybody always tells, like, all the good people will be in hell. And I'm kind of think that's true by their definition, like, all the fun people also some bad people, like, actually, but you know, the rest of us too.

Michael David Wilson 25:15
I mean, the music is gonna be absolutely awesome. Oh yeah, so many great, literally, everybody, yeah, basically, yeah. And I like, too, when you were kind of advocating for yourself, caring for animals, that your dog interjected, and the dog is like, Yep,

CJ Leede 25:36
I don't even know what she was barking about, so that she might have just been agreeing?

Michael David Wilson 25:41
Yeah, no, I like that. Do you have many dogs? I know that you've said before you take in rescue dogs, so I'm not sure how many we're dealing with.

CJ Leede 25:51
Yeah, so I we had four. We just lost one last month, but we so now we have three, and that spicy one who just barked, she is a two legged Chihuahua, and she's, like, totally amazing, very funny, very sweet dog. They're great, they're like, they're hilarious, they're goofy, they're so sweet, and they just really kind of make our lives so awesome and chaotic.

Michael David Wilson 26:22
Yeah, that's so wonderful to hear. And you alluded to this earlier, but I want to know, why did you move from New York to LA what was the initial impetus?

CJ Leede 26:39
That was I had, excuse me, my my mom's dog, who I'm watching, actually wants to join. Lovely.

Michael David Wilson 26:49
For those watching the video, you just got a sneak preview.

CJ Leede 26:54
It's very cute. Um, I had hiked on the west coast in my early 20s, and I totally fell in love with the mountains, and I couldn't stop thinking about them, and so I turned to my boyfriend, same one as now back then, and I said, Okay, I want to move. I want it to be the West Coast. I love you. I hope you want to come with me, and you can pick the city. And so we looked at the Bay Area, and we looked at LA, and we just knew more people in LA. And so that was that. And it's been a really great it was a really great move for us. And then we were living there, and then the fires happened, and that's why we've been kind of on the road since the fires, so for about a year.

Michael David Wilson 27:42
Yeah, and I understand that your kind of relationship with LA, it started off a little bit tumultuous because you didn't like it to begin with. So I'd love to hear the journey from moving thinking, oh shit, have I made a terrible mistake here to then falling in love.

CJ Leede 28:03
Yeah, I think it's common like leaving New York City, because you just, you get in such a zone living there. And I had been there, I moved there in high school and stayed for like 10 years. So and my boyfriend's from there, that it can be really hard moving other places, because, one, there's this kind of insidious thing that, like, if you live in Manhattan, this is like a sickness. And I tell my friends who still live there, but like, I think people can't see it like you, you start to believe it's like, the only city in the world that matters. Like, there's a weird thing in New York that you just like, you're like, This is the place, and every other place is sort of baffling. Like, how do people live that way? And I definitely, I didn't think I was one of those people. And then I left New York and I was like, Oh my God, what? How am I supposed to go to the bar? Like, what am I supposed to drive to the bar? But then, like, I can't drink. And this is like, suddenly, like, I just didn't quite know how to, like, live, and feeling a little bit outside what I had viewed as the center of the world, which was New York City. But it turns out, it's not, it's a great place, but every place is a great place. Yeah. So LA, I panicked. I felt like I love New Yorkers as people, and I had a hard time. I could find ex New Yorkers easily in LA, but it was it just, I don't know. I couldn't find my place in the ecosystem. And so then covid happened, and I wanted to get to know the city, because we were living there, and I had moved us there, and so I started reading a ton about it, and driving around during covid and, like, kind of exploring from my car. And that was writing Maeve, and I ended up, like, I always say this, but I think it's really true. I think if you look closely at anything, for. Long enough like you'll find a way to fall in love with it. And that is kind of what happened as a sidebar. I was scared that would happen with looking back at my childhood religion in American rapture, but we're good. But, yeah, I love LA. It's very itself. It's got issues. But, man, that is a wonderful city to get to be a part of. And like really, some some amazing people.

Michael David Wilson 30:31
Yes, interesting too, that you went from New York, which is the publishing capital of America, possibly the world, to living in LA, which is, I'd say, the movie capital of LA, and almost certainly the world. So that begs the question, are you also screenwriting, or do you have aspirations to get into film? No.

CJ Leede 30:57
And as as an aside with that, the other New York thing is, like talking about how, like, nobody in LA reads, you know, like New Yorkers love to say that, but I got to LA, and there are like, over 60 independent bookstores in just the city of LA. It's actually a huge reading city, which is super cool. I do not like I'm not good at writing anything other than books, even short stories. I really struggle with. I guess you could, it's up for debate if I'm good at writing books, but I'm definitely not good at writing the anything else. So, yeah, I would love to have things adapted I've I did have an option out on Maeve for about three years, and then it just got reverted. So we're taking it back on the market now, so I won't write it, but I would love to see things adapted.

Michael David Wilson 31:50
Yeah, well, fingers crossed for that film adaptation. And I mean, so often that's the way that it goes. There's a lot of kind of waiting and seeing what happens, and it's, it's far more tumultuous and volatile than the publishing world. I mean, the Hollywood and the film world is a different beast entirely.

CJ Leede 32:14
Yeah, and it's amazing how many people it takes to pull anything off. Like, you know, I have a team with my books, but it's very few of us. And with putting a show together or a movie, the number of people who have to be the exact right person and love the project and back the project, it's just like, I don't know how anybody makes anything. It's incredible.

Michael David Wilson 32:39
Now, of course, we want to talk about may fly and American Rapture. Now, ordinarily, we would start with your first book may fly. But as I understand it, you wrote the first draft of American rapture way before may fly. So I actually want to start there. So it took 13 years until publication. Tell us about the stages from the idea initially coming to you, to the first draft and then the final published book.

CJ Leede 33:18
So I had an open elective course my last semester of undergrad, and I took a writing class, and I was reading a lot of like dystopian YA fantasy at the time, and I wrote the beginning of what I thought would be a book like that, and it was fun, and I enjoyed it in no world did I think it was anything I would pursue. I graduated, I was going to work a few jobs, save a bunch of money for that hike I was going on, and I got an email from my professor saying he had sent my pages to his agent and editor, and then they both, I guess, like, wanted full manuscripts just to see, which was so cool. But also I was like, I don't know how to do that, or even what this means, but it seemed like the kind of thing you should just say yes to. So I dropped one of my three jobs, and I wrote a book really fast, and it was so bad. It was, like, really terrible. I wrote it in like, a month and a half or two months in Austin, and then I sent it back to them, and I actually got and I sent it to a bunch of other people. I think I got some rewrite requests, which at the time I thought was a rejection. But now I'm like, oh, that's kind of crazy. But I was going on my hike by the time I got those emails, and so I kind of thought the whole thing was dead in the water, and wasn't really what I was planning to do with my life anyway. And then when I was hiking, which was a number of months, I just kept thinking about how much I. Liked writing, and I remember I met another hiker on the trail, and he said, What do you want to do after this? And I said, I think I want to be a writer. And I remember it like really surprised me. And then I got off trail, and I spent a number of months rewriting it a bunch. And then I applied to grad school three times. And then I got into grad school eventually, and then after, I guess I didn't touch American rapture again until, like after once I was in LA so does that? It's kind of like it was many years and then I only kind of revisited it. I wrote a vampire trucker novel in grad school that is mostly takes place in Massachusetts. Maybe I'll revive that one day. And I was sending that out for a very long time after grad school. And I ended up getting a manager, like a film manager, not an agent. Agents still would not touch my work. Got a film manager with that vampire book, and then he helped me rewrite American rapture, which still wasn't even called that at the time, and still no takers. And then I wrote Maeve, and then that kind of changed the game, and then it got kind of brought back into the mix. So sorry, that was kind of a long you may want to edit that down, but that it was really like that it was just sort of like it kept getting thrown in and taken out and thrown in and taken out for a very long time.

Michael David Wilson 36:32
I honestly think what you said, and all the detail was all so relevant and interesting. And you said vampire trucker, which I feel is like a positive trigger word for Bob. Like that feels like exactly the type of thing that Bob in particular would love to read. I mean, I want to read it too, but I was watching Bob's reaction to vampire trucker.

Bob Pastorella 36:59
Yeah, I'm about to break my CD, my CB radio out. Break a breaker.

CJ Leede 37:06
Are you a trucker?

Bob Pastorella 37:07
No, but that whole esthetic, especially vampire trucker, you know? I mean, that's one of those ideas that, if you write this and it comes out, that like Keith Rosson is probably going to get pissed off. He's got to go, Fuck. I could have done that. No, to do this. My credit card is ready.

CJ Leede 37:31
It was, it was fun. When I was working on it, I actually had this big fat like, you know, CDL, course, like, prep book, and I was like, I'm gonna get my commercial driver's license and I'm gonna drive a semi truck while I'm finishing writing this. And who knows, maybe, maybe 2026, I'll bring it all back.

Bob Pastorella 37:52
Well, you need to do it because, I mean, it's just it feel it already feels like near dark. And so I'm like, Okay, I'm so, yeah,

CJ Leede 38:01
well, I hope I can make it half as good as anything Keith has done. And that guy is just on fire.

Michael David Wilson 38:09
Yeah, he spent many years with the independent presses doing things that are just as good as what he's been doing with the more mainstream presses. And then suddenly the writing world took notice, and it's just been magnificent to see that happen. I mean, we saw years before, something similar happened with Stephen Graham Jones and Paul Tremblay. So it's just kind of testament, really, to the fact that we have to keep plugging away. We have to keep writing hard, and eventually, one hope somebody will notice us. And sometimes they do, sometimes they don't, but kind of doing it for the love of the craft of writing,

CJ Leede 38:57
yeah, and that's got to be the thing to come back to. I mean, when I was in grad school, and after everyone was like, What are you doing, sending out horror like, nobody wants horror right now. And that, I was told that all through school, and then even when I was querying, like, I'm telling you, I got hundreds of emails from people saying, No, we don't want horror. We don't want vampires. It's never going to be vampires again. And it's incredible. You know how the nose, it can be just like an ocean of nose, and then one day the tide turns, and I don't know, you know, all those guys were sort of like pioneers who really paved the way for people like me to be able to step in at the time that I did, but it's amazing how suddenly the world took notice of horror and said, Oh, actually, it's the only genre that we don't consider perennial. Why is that? It's the only genre that we've sort of relegated to like one month? The year, or one small shelf, or said, like, we don't have room for it at Big fives. And I think they've all realized they were missing out, and it's so it's a really cool time to get to be a part of it.

Michael David Wilson 40:13
I think so. And I think one of the things, one of many things that makes horror so fascinating, is it's probably the one genre where we can absolutely unflinchingly tell the truth. It is a place where transgressive fiction is not only embraced but encouraged, and I think particularly in what is bizarrely becoming a post truth world the necessity for storytelling and for authenticity has become more vital.

CJ Leede 40:48
Yeah, I think you're right, and catharsis is is just as vital too, you know? I mean, it's like horror allows us to confront the things and escape the things. And we know that we'll always walk away at the end of the book. You know, our characters might not, but we will. And there's a there's a lot to be said for that, given the uncertainty of that in in life. So I think it's a beautiful thing.

Michael David Wilson 41:16
And I imagine, too, if you talk about, you know, it being cathartic. It must have been very cathartic and perhaps liberating to write American rapture and to just expose and to have a response to this kind of Catholic upbringing that you had.

CJ Leede 41:38
Yeah, the coolest thing about writing that book is that I started it when I was 21 and I finished it when I was 31 and I think being 21 I was still really close to like I remembered the the teen feelings. I remembered that turmoil of that time period in my life in a way that I probably never could access now, you know, but I also got to finish it in my early 30s and write some of the adult perspectives and some of what they were saying those characters were saying to Sophie, and so it was kind of like, it was like a decade of my grappling with something and my evolution all in one book, which is even more a reason why no author should ever despair, because it was only because of all the no's that that book ended up being what ultimately I think it was really meant to be. And I'm actually very, very grateful that it took so long to come out, because if it had come out in my early 20s, like it would have been fine, it would have been fine. But as it is, like, I get to meet people and hear their stories and hear what they've been through, and I think I put something out that I feel proud of. So, you know, the right thing comes out at the right time.

Michael David Wilson 43:04
Yeah, I've heard people say before that a no now is just paving the way for a greater yes in the future. Yeah. I like that idea whether it is or is not true. I like living like that, and it makes these so called rejections a lot easier to deal with. And I mean, I wonder too, would you say that having that distance between your childhood and then kind of finishing it at 31 do you think that allowed you to be more fearless in the writing and more scathing in your critique of religion

CJ Leede 43:42
for sure. And there's a scene in which one of the adult characters is talking to Sophie Cleo, the character in a hotel room. And it was the very last thing I put into the book, and it was kind of like my it feels a little cheesy to say it this way, but it, but it felt very powerful to me. It felt like me sitting down and thinking like, Okay, what is the thing I would tell to my like teenage self, Who's In Who's really entrenched in this right now? And I sat down and I wrote it, and it never really got edited, that section and that ended up being kind of like my final stamp I put on the book. And I just thought, Okay, that's it. And I've really kind of spoken like my my truth as an adult, and that was a great gift to be able to do that. That was very cool,

Michael David Wilson 44:40
and just to get a sense of the timeline and your writing trajectory, would that mean, since you finished it at 31 that in between starting and finishing American rapture that you completed may fly, that it went from rough draft to finished product. Perfect to be published.

CJ Leede 45:01
Yes, Maeve was very fast, so I wrote the timeline is very weird. So, like, I sold Maeve two years before it came out, and I wrote it, you know, obviously before that. So I wrote it starting in October 2020, I finished it in it was so fast. It was like, it was like, it just clawed its way out of me. I was so angry at everything. And I probably finished it by January. And then I did an edit round with my agent. And, oh, I got an agent with me, if that's what it was. So I did edit rounds with my manager. I ended up getting an agent, probably in April or May, and then for the first time ever, and may was the third book I had written and completed. And then in the summer, we sold it to night fire, and it was a three book deal. And that day was insane, because I knew, we knew leading up to it, it would be a one month thing, and we had a set day, and I woke up in the morning and I had, I didn't know if I'd get any offers. I had had a couple meetings. I knew Kelly, my editor, was the person I really wanted to work with. We just vibed well, and she was the least traditional seeming of all of the publishers, and she was, this was the first horror imprint at a big five. And so that was like my dream, and I woke up in the morning and we I did get one other offer. It was a lovely offer. It was so nice. It was with a publisher who it would mean that my books would not be in any indie bookstores or Barnes and Nobles, which has kind of always been my dream is just to be able to walk into bookstores and see my books much more than anything else with this job, and so that I was like, but, you know what? But I got an offer. Like, I felt so great. I thought, Okay, this is going to be okay. And then there were, like, six hours left, and silence, no other offers, nothing. And I was like, Okay, I think that's what we're doing. That's fine. Like, I'm gonna have a book in the world. It won't look the way I thought it would, but who cares? It's a yes, and then immediately, like I would say, in the last like, 20 minutes of our auction period, we got an offer from night fire. And when I tell you, like, I could, I didn't even open my curtains this day. I was in my sweats. I was like, such a mess, pacing, and my boyfriend has a video of me answering the phone and getting the call, and it's just I was just like crying, so that was the greatest thing ever. But yeah, so sorry, that was long story, but that and that offer was for three books. So the three books ended up being Maeve, then we kind of rebirthed American rapture, and then headlights, which is coming next. So it was like total fairy tale after seven years of sending out,

Michael David Wilson 48:07
yeah, I mean, for you to get that offer in the last 20 minutes, I mean, what a literal, cinematic ending to that auction period.

CJ Leede 48:17
It was crazy. It was like the dream. So, yeah, I feel I'll never not be grateful for that.

Michael David Wilson 48:26
And so I wonder in American rapture, when did you know that this sexually propagating viral epidemic, which is a hell of a mouthful, well, that's an interesting one. Was going to be part of American Rapture. And how did the shape of this virus transform alongside the writing

CJ Leede 48:52
that was actually one of the only parts that didn't change. Yeah. So when I started writing this book. I wanted it to be just really like a retelling of Inferno and the Divine Comedy. And I kept thinking about this idea of like the lovers whirlwind and sort of like bodies in the wind. And I knew that there were illnesses that can, sort of like attack parts of our brains, right? We know this that can kind of change behavioral patterns. And I think I thought early on, it would be crazy to have you know as a young person, a young woman or young person in a religious environment like the scariest idea is possession, but also any other kind of forced physicality, you know, obviously, like sexual assault, anything where, like your body is kind of taken from you. And so I put that into zombies. I made you know, this fear of sexuality into. Something like very kind of literal and and physically omnipresent. And so that was kind of my working through it. The part that changed was with covid. I actually kind of, I mean, everything was kind of there, like I knew there would be vac I thought there would be vaccine backlash. I grew up in the land of don't tell me what to do, and so I suspected that people would not like being told to get vaccines, and I thought there would be religious, religious figures weighing in on things. So all of that was always there. The only thing that changed with covid was like, I didn't realize. First of all, masks. I didn't think masks would be such a big part of things, and which is funny, because, like, of course they would, but also I didn't, I couldn't really predict what the internet would be like in covid times like the way that people kind of turned on each other, and even forums, like next door the next door app was like, brutal in our neighborhood, just neighbors being horrible to each other and yelling at each other about shots or masks or it was just like everybody became everybody's enemy. And that was, that was what I couldn't predict, but the actual virus, shots, all that that was all there the whole time.

Michael David Wilson 51:26
So it's almost a bizarre situation where, If covid hadn't happened, the book would be a little different as to how it is,

CJ Leede 51:36
yeah, for sure. Well, I mean, you could probably argue that with anything, because everything that happens, kind of, you know, affects the writer, and then you're like it, yeah, that would greatly change the book. But I didn't mean to be in any way prescient about that. And I hope I'm with any of my horror novels. I hope I'm not prescient about anything I hope nothing I write ever comes to be true. Yeah. Weird time. Weird time, yeah.

Bob Pastorella 52:14
Was there? Was there any editorial pushback considering covid? Because I remember seeing some people online talking about how they tried to work covid into a novel, and one of the big five said, No, you're not working this into the story. And they're like, but it's something that happened. They're like, Yeah, but not not. We're not gonna go there?

CJ Leede 52:41
Yeah, I think so I named so there were coronaviruses, you know, before covid 19. And so I named the virus in my book, like cov, something else, and which I can't remember now. And so I think people took that to mean that our covid pandemic had already happened in the timeline of the book, which wasn't really my intention, but also I don't really care. So it, yeah, nobody pushed back. But we also, I mean, the book was already kind of done. It was, it was like a weird thing, but in my other books, I just pretend covid didn't happen because that. I pretend nothing in our actual timeline, in the last four years happened, or five years, six years, oh my gosh, it's 2026, that's crazy. I want to write my own, you know, version.

Michael David Wilson 53:40
I'm wondering how much of this novel Did you plan before writing it, and how did you keep track of all the characters? Because, I mean, keeping track of characters in a regular story is one thing, but in an apocalyptic setting, different roles, apply.

CJ Leede 54:03
Yes, the cool thing again, about a book taking so long is like you start to get to know the characters so innately and intimately that you're like, I mean, I know those characters better than I know anybody in Maeve, in a lot of ways, because I just sat with them for so long. What was hard, and what I had no idea would be so hard, is the logistics of, like clothing items, like a jacket. It's a fucking nightmare. Like, there were scenes where it was like, okay, but Sophie's jacket was ripped here. But it's vital that actually, in this next scene. It's sitting right here, and it like the keeping track of items was crazy and and items that would have bodily fluid spatter on them, that was also very important. I did see some meteorologist reader said. I got the whole tornado thing wrong. I was in a tornado as a kid, and I did it the way that I thought I remembered it, but apparently that was wrong. But it's funny. It's like it is keeping track of so many things. But I storyboard with with characters like I like them each to have their own arc and their own like, wants and wounds and fears, and I love doing that for all of them. And so I really enjoy getting to know the characters as much as I can, and really thinking like, okay, but would they do that? Or would they take a step forward in this scene? Or would they hang back? Or, you know, it's, it's shuffling, but I, I think the found family aspect and the sort of like communal dynamic. I would love to write another book like that. Actually, I really enjoyed that.

Michael David Wilson 55:47
And so I'm guessing the planning process and the writing process was wildly different for may fly, which, you know, you said that you wrote from, I think it was October to January. So such a quick burst for that first draft. So I mean, are you typically someone who plans novels, or are you a pantser? To use the bizarre vernacular

CJ Leede 56:16
I had a teacher once say, You never learn how to write a book. You only learn how to write the one you're working on, and that has very much been my experience, all which is to say, I Every book has been just like, a completely different thing. And certain books I will try to either like, really plot it, or I'll be like, You know what? I'm just gonna like, I'm just gonna rip it. I'm just gonna like, write as much as they can, and they'll just, I find, at least for me, like they'll tell me, they'll be like, No, that's not working, you know, or I'll get stuck, or I'll come up against something, or I can feel when something really is working. And with Maeve, I just plotted the whole book in like two days. It was crazy, maybe three days. And I just, there's not much plot. It's not much happens. You know? It's like change is coming. She doesn't want change. That's it. That's the whole book. And then when change does inevitably come, because that's life, she acts out and responds. And that's kind of the entire plot spoiler of may fly, so it was easy, and then I just was I had a lot to say. I'm not a person who historically, ever really let myself feel angry. It's like very against the culture I grew up in, you know, like in the South, in a religious space, like, especially as, like a female, you just kind of don't express anger, because even, like, angry women were always talked about as something you like, really didn't want to be. And Maeve was kind of, like, my whole life of anger put into one book, probably, and I had lost people. It was feeling very out of power in my life, and I couldn't sell a book. And I was like, Where is my life going? And then that's how it happened. So there wasn't much process there. It was like a vomit of book, and then, like, a painful one. And then I was like, oh, it's there. And a lot of it wasn't edited that much like it's pretty crazy. The first two pages are exactly the same as they always were, except for the IP that we had to change for that very litigious company.

Michael David Wilson 58:41
Am I not allowed to say that company during this conversation? Because it

CJ Leede 58:47
kind of, I just, I'm not gonna corroborate it.

Michael David Wilson 58:52
Okay, well, we'll see then how your answers to some of the questions go pretty good, yeah, yeah. And I mean, you spoke about you never really learn how to write a book, just the book that you're writing. And so on that basis, I wonder, what lessons did you learn writing American rapture that made you a better writer, and equally as we're now also segueing into may fly. What lessons did you learn writing may fly that made you a better writer?

CJ Leede 59:30
I think, with American Rapture. I mean, I learned how to map. I learned how to create, like, very detailed timelines. I learned how to think systemically, like you have to think systemically. You have to think about in an apocalypse book, when would you realistically lose power and why, and when would you have cell service and why and the movement? Of government groups, the movements of everyone, like all of it is actually really has to be thought through sidebar. I also played, I always forget the name. I don't know if it was pandemic or contagion. There's like a computer game where you can simulate a viral like pandemic or epidemic. It's really fun. And you basically try to create a virus that spreads across the earth as fast as possible, which seems less fun now post covid, but pre covid, I played it a lot. So I learned to think systemically, and then I also always try to have any scenery reflect what's happening internally with the character. And I learned that from reading specifically Victor lavals book The Changeling is my favorite example of this, because every scene in there, like, is a little subterranean, even, like, even some of them will be like, just taking a few steps down into a Starbucks, like there's always this subterranean quality, and every setting reflects what's happening in the characters in that moment. So trying to do that in American rapture with this like road map was so fun. Learned a lot about that. Learned a lot about ensemble casts. I knew I wanted that cast to be diverse, because that was a lot of the story was Sophie meeting people who weren't like her. And also I feel very strongly I'm putting out a book a year. I don't want every character to be exactly like me. But also I don't want to be trying to I shouldn't be trying to write the experience of it another type of person. So it's an interesting that was an interesting kind of dance to try and diversify my cast, but not speak for any experience that I haven't had, and we had sensitivity readers. So that was, like a whole fascinating thing. But Maeve, it's like, not to sound like a crazy person, but like, I didn't tell Maeve to do anything, you know, it's almost like Maeve existed and somewhere in me, and just was like, This is how it's gonna go. And I think, if anything, with that book, I just learned, like, Don't get in my own way, you know, like the stories there, just let it go. There were days when I would just close all the curtains and, like, drink from the moment I woke up, because I just thought, I just have to get into such a state for this scene. And some of the scenes were so gross and brutal, but they were what I felt like they had to be. And so I don't know how to say that in a more practical way, other than just like not impeding myself, you know, like not ever letting myself. Question, is it too much? Is it? Did it go right or whatever? But just pushing forward?

Michael David Wilson 1:02:54
Well, I have to ask, what was the most fucked up thing that you discovered when writing may fly that you didn't include in the book.

CJ Leede 1:03:07
So I want to write a Maeve two, which is not a secret, and I do have some really good kills. I don't know if my publisher will publish Maeve two, which is also not a secret. It's interesting. With horror, in sci fi, fantasy trilogies, series do so well, you know, and in romance, they do so well. And in thrillers and mysteries, they do so well. But for some reason, in horror, like it's an interesting thing, I think people have trouble getting a foothold, and some of them are very successful, but we just don't have very many. So anyway, that's a bit of an aside, but I would love to make Maeve trilogy, so I'll just say maybe I can't share with you, because I have some really good ones, and I want to hold on to them, but I did learn a lot about like, musculo, skeletal attachments. You know, specifically, I have a cousin who's a doctor, and she's so great, I will text her and be like, hypothetically, if someone did this to this person, she'd be like, Oh, okay, yep, this would happen. This would happen. Here's a chart. Here's a diagram. Here are some other options. If she were to do this, this would happen instead. And I get, like, all this really bloody awesome stuff. So yeah, I've learned a lot about those sorts of things,

Michael David Wilson 1:04:37
and it's exciting to hear that they're well, hopefully, fingers crossed, be a second book and possibly a third book. So, yeah, I hope that Maeve will be one of the exceptions that will do tremendously well as a trilogy. I mean, we have a few of them. We have, yeah, Stephen Graham Jones is. Trilogy. Maybe he's done a couple of trilogies at this point. I don't know. He's doing a new book seemingly every week, and

CJ Leede 1:05:11
that trilogy is so good, and Keith Rosson did the duology,

Michael David Wilson 1:05:15
yeah, yeah, Eric,

CJ Leede 1:05:19
yeah, yeah. Who knows?

Michael David Wilson 1:05:21
Maybe, yeah, now, I certainly hope so. And I mean, I wonder, because you've obviously got this really strong protagonist and really memorable protagonist in the shape of Maeve, and you've also got this really strong location that, for legal reasons, we can't say what it might be based on. Yeah, the theme park, for some could be the happiest place on earth. For others, maybe hell on earth. But which came first? Was it Maeve, or was it the location?

CJ Leede 1:06:01
But it was all there, I knew. So I had only been to the theme park that doesn't exist one time as an adult, when I wrote the book and I was with my goddaughter was visiting. She was like a year and a half old, and we went to the castle of the ice queen and her sister, and we waited in line for like hours to see these girls and this snow man song played the entire time. It was like that song, and the song from the movie about the Old Man and the balloons who, like, loses his wife in the beginning. And it was like that wife losing scene was, like on a loop. It was the craziest thing. And it was the only AC in the whole park where we were. Anyway, it was hours of this. And I just remember looking around being like, what am I doing here? And we get there and meet the princesses, and I think it really occurred to me for the first time, these are, like 20 year old girls. These are like young women in Los Angeles doing this every day. And it just stuck with me, and I couldn't stop thinking about it. And then when I started writing Maeve, I wasn't thinking about the park, I was thinking about story of the I mostly and I really wanted to rewrite story of the eye. I was visiting family in New York in October, and I was walking in the leaves, and I was so mad about something, and I was talking to my boyfriend, and I said, we need a woman to write story of the eye. That's what we need, which is, like, I don't know in what world that would fix anything for anyone ever, but that's what I decided I needed, and so I started writing it, and I just instantly knew that was her job. And so they were unrelated things, but I just That's how Maeve was. It was just like everything coming from everywhere, and just like clicking in my brain.

Michael David Wilson 1:07:57
Yeah, I think a lot of people have drawn comparisons to me to may fly with American Psycho, and I've seen a similar thing happen with Eliza Clark's boy parts. And I feel there's almost this fantastic, I guess, Genesis of rageful, female, empowering horror, and that's kind of what you are at the start of this movement,

CJ Leede 1:08:32
I guess. So I you know, it's funny, I haven't read boy parts, and I absolutely like have to you should?

Michael David Wilson 1:08:40
It's so good. It's so good. Yeah,

CJ Leede 1:08:42
I think by the time I finished Maeve, I thought I cannot ingest any more content like this. You know what I mean? Like, just for my own mental health, I usually read when I'm working on something like Maeve, I just read, like, romance novels on the side, just to, like, cleanse my brain, but I've heard it's amazing. And as far as that wave goes, I mean, I felt like my editor, Kelly is really fearless. And there was, I don't know how to say that this is where I might get in trouble. There was pushback. I'm not sure that everyone wanted her to buy Maeve. And other editors who were interested in Maeve were told by their publishers they could not buy it. There There were concerns, and it was the, obviously, the litigation aspect with that company, but also just it was, it was extreme, and I think I don't know boy parts wasn't out yet. You know what I mean? Like there was, there just wasn't really anything, at least, that I had seen, just like it. And so everyone was nervous, and they held it for two years, like there was, like a. Interesting, like, we really kind of waited to put it out. And I think Kelly is a visionary, like, more than me, and she she just seems to have a knack to know what's going to hit right in the right moment. And she's pretty amazing, and it's awesome. Biggest perk of my job is getting free books of like all the other authors that work with my editor, so that's the greatest thing ever.

Michael David Wilson 1:10:27
Yeah, and I think boy parts and may fly, they compliment one another so much. I think probably one of the reasons is because they both have such a distinct sense of place. So whereas may fly is set in America, and in this distinct theme park that is not based on somewhere real, that's just a coincidence. And boy parts is in northern England, and it's such a strong northern English voice. So you know that they are complementing, rather than competing with one another well?

CJ Leede 1:11:06
And I never feel books really are competing, because it's always, you're always kind of putting forth, like your own voice. You know? I gotta read it. I really can't wait to. And I've also not read Victorian psycho, which is the now everybody's been talking about, right? Yeah, very excited to read that, too.

Michael David Wilson 1:11:25
Yeah, no, that, that keeps popping up everywhere on social media.

CJ Leede 1:11:30
Yeah, people say it's wild.

Bob Pastorella 1:11:33
I've heard of that, but I haven't heard of boy parts. I haven't, but when I was in reading, reading Maeve, the trans I mean, you, you spend a lot of time getting us to really get into into her character and where she's coming from and what and what she's doing, and I think that's extremely important. Because when you when you slide down the slope of where the story is going to go, if you didn't care about the character, you wouldn't give a shit about anything that happens after that. And so I think that's real important, that we have a grounded character that people can relate to, who slides into, I guess, an American Psycho version of madness, you know? And then, when you were talking about it, there's, might be a Maeve too, you probably already know, but there is an American Psycho too. Not the movie, No, I'm talking about a book. It's called lunar Park.

CJ Leede 2 1:12:43
I love lunar Park.

Bob Pastorella 1:12:45
Lunar Park is good, fucking amazing. This girl I was dating, we got into a big fight, and she was trying to make up with me, and I was being very stubborn, and she heard a knock on my door, and she called me, and I seen her calling, and I'm like, okay, and I'm not, I went to voicemail, and she goes, I was at your door. I do not want to talk to you. I left you something that you need to read. And it was lunar Park. She went, bought it, and I was like, and I started reading it immediately, because I had no I didn't even know about the book, and I'd already read American psychon. I was like, Holy shit, it's so it is so fucking good. Have you ever read it?

Michael David Wilson 1:13:32
Yeah, I have read the vast majority, if not everything, by Brett. He says, Yeah.

CJ Leede 1:13:40
You know, the only one I have not read is glamorama, glamora. But however, I think the name, for some reason, felt like a barrier to me. But I everybody says it's like, so good. I feel like I need her. I love everything else.

Bob Pastorella 1:13:55
Yeah, it's and, you know, here's the thing, too. I was thinking more of poppy zbright, exquisite corpse. And then, you know, and we get to the part in Maeve where she, and she says those two words, and it's a name, and I don't want to spoil anything, but I was like, oh, oh, we're going here. How? Because I could, I'm notoriously, it's on record. I couldn't finish exquisite carps. I don't know if you ever read it.

CJ Leede 1:14:27
No, I'm gonna make a list over here of everything I

Bob Pastorella 1:14:31
need to read. It is, it, is it is a, it is probably a very, it's a very, very important story. I couldn't finish it. It is, it's gross. It's just, it's stomach churning. It's, I don't know, I mean, it's like, I've never read the girl who lives next door. I know that's like, it's crazy, yeah, yeah, I've never read it because I feel like that. It. I'm too sensitive to that kind of stuff, and I think it would, it would probably hurt me. But exquisite carps, I'm like, Oh, I can handle this. And this all I got about two thirds away through. And I'm like, Not, not. I'm done. I'm done. And it's beautifully written. It is just stomach churning to me.

CJ Leede 1:15:20
Love it. Can't wait.

Michael David Wilson 1:15:26
Since we're talking about, you know, pushing the limits of grossness and extreme horror. I'm wondering, did you ever self censor yourself, or did your editor ever censor you writing Maeve flyan Indeed, writing American Rapture.

CJ Leede 1:15:49
Never in Maeve one time, one scene in American rapture there was, you know, the scene on the highway with the the two guys in the in front of her when she's in the car, that scene went one step further at first, or half a step further. So sorry about my dog. And she was like, We got to pull it back a little, just a little. It was like, it was half a sentence. I think we took out. And I, you know, I think if they're flagging it, I'm not really fighting them. I'm like, Okay, no problem. I don't want to, yeah, it's a fine line always, especially with American rapture, because it did have to deal with, like, the whole thing was about sexual assault, and you really don't want to. I tried really hard to handle that in a way where, like, I told the story, but wasn't ever gratuitous with it, and I hopefully we kind of pulled it off. But yeah, with Maeve never it was just like, that's what those scenes are. I would get a lot of like, margin notes like, oh my god, disgusting, amazing, you know, whatever. It's a horror imprint.

Michael David Wilson 1:17:13
And I love just in terms of, I suppose, the mythos surrounding the publication that they waited two years to even release it.

CJ Leede 1:17:23
Yeah, and that was an intro, because, like, there was covid, but also the imprint had just started, so they were like, do you remember there were issues with paper and, like, things getting stuck on shipping boats? I mean, it was, like, such a weird time. So I don't know that it was strategic in terms of the content, but maybe they do kind of tend to think that way, and it's interesting, and they try to give me a full year lead up time for each book. Now, you know, like, I have to have it finished a year before it comes out, so we can, like, properly market it and everything. By the way, I don't know how any author is so great about these book a year schedules? I'm trying to do it now and, like, it's crazy. I don't know how people, like every horror author there is, can crank out like, one to three books a year, and I'm like, body dog. This one took me 10 years. This one took me five years. So wish me luck that I can, like, get my shit together a little more.

Bob Pastorella 1:18:23
I'm slow too. Don't feel bad. Yeah, like I did. I just had a book come out last year, and it was the first book I had come out in six years. So it's like, I just take my fucking time. And you know what? It's like, whatever shits gotta cook.

CJ Leede 1:18:40
Shits gotta cook. Yes, absolutely, okay. I'm gonna hold on to that line and bring it back in my meetings.

Bob Pastorella 1:18:49
There you go. Shit's gotta cook.

Michael David Wilson 1:18:53
And so you've got headlights coming out next. And so that is, I presume, then that must be the third book in the free book deal. So do you, as you said, you have to have, you know, the book written a year in advance. Does that mean you have another book that is now ready to go in terms of hoping for another free book deal, or is that shit still cooking? To borrow Bob's terminology,

CJ Leede 1:19:25
I'm gonna say like Yes. A little bit to all of those things I did get. I have another three book deal now. So that was a very cool thing that happened after rapture came out. So I've got three more books with night fire. So six total, theoretically, books four, five and six should come out each you know, the next, whatever. Four, three summers after headlights, I handed in the first half of my fourth book with an outline of the rest. Literally. Like, four days ago. So that's I'm a little disheveled today. I did that, and then I went to my best friend's wedding, which was amazing. And then the last two days, I had been sleeping and watching bridgerton and reality TV and, like, totally rotting. And it's been awesome. But the fourth book is a New York book. So finally, I'm going after my my New York self, which will be fun. After Colorado headlights is very we're going to talk about headlights. I think we're talking another time, right?

Michael David Wilson 1:20:33
Oh, yeah. We're not going to do that in the last 12 minutes. It's like, and we're going to talk very quickly, because we've got to cover headlights in 12 minutes. No, that is good. That will be in a few months.

CJ Leede 1:20:45
Yeah. But it's, it's fun that, like, they're all very different flavors, you know, they're all very different kind of worlds to get to live in for the periods of time that I get to live in them. So I'm excited, I'm excited for you all to read the next ones, and it's fun to get to talk about the two that are out, because I it's like, I don't even remember the version of me that wrote either of those books in a way, you know, because just time passes,

Michael David Wilson 1:21:12
yeah, and when you sold the second free book deal, how Was that process? I mean, did you provide a detailed outline for the New York book and then give a vague idea for the other two? Or is it a case of, well, my last two books did pretty well. Do you want to sign me up for another three and we'll discuss the the content at a later date.

CJ Leede 1:21:41
Yeah, you know, as is always the way of things. Like I handed in, I have like, nine or 12 books I want to write. They're all kind of, and they're all, they're all by state or region I've got that's kind of my project. And I made this whole list. It was super detailed each book. Like, here a few, well, you know, here are a few sentences for each book, but I've got the books in my mind. And then at the last second, I was like, You know what I could probably write, like a something like New York art world, like cursed painting, possession book or something. And I just wrote, like, a little sentence. And of course, it was like, Okay, we want that one, and then two undetermined ones, so that I was like, oh shit, I don't, like, really have an idea for this book. So, yeah, that's the New York book, and then the next two. We don't know, but I have a bunch lined up. Could be a Florida book I have. Could be this Appalachia book I have. Could be this Oregon book I have. I'll get to Texas eventually, but that's like I gotta, I gotta work my way up to the to the home state.

Michael David Wilson 1:22:53
Yeah, I feel that I always have multiple story ideas in various forms, and it's always the one that is least fleshed out, that people are like, Yeah, that's the one I want. What is it? It's like, well, it's kind of the one sentence I just gave you

CJ Leede 1:23:11
so funny, I know, and it's the first book where I'm not really working out like a major emotional problem. I mean, I'm kind of asking the question, what is art, and what is like the meaning of being an artist, which I guess is, like a pretty big these are big questions, but I'm not like raging in this book, so it's a new experience. And I wonder if you have that as well, that some just feel, some some are, some are more fun, and some are more emotional, and it's just kind of always different.

Bob Pastorella 1:23:42
I like books about art, whether it's painting or music. I mean, shit, I'm working on something right now that's combining jazz and the occult. So cool. You know, I love that kind of stuff, and I like the idea that you're doing it by location, because it allows you to have setting as character. And that is real big to me too. That's something that I really like to see. So the I'm real interested in this possession art world and New York type story, there's, there's a lot of history there that can be tapped into.

CJ Leede 1:24:20
A lot of history. I hope it's good. I hope people like, you know it's you never know. I mean, I wonder if you guys have this experience like, I never know if anyone's gonna like what I'm working on. And you just kind of put it out and say, This is what I had in me, and see what happens. Yeah.

Michael David Wilson 1:24:37
I mean, this is pretty much the experience I have with every book. And you know, from talking to different writers, it seems to be an almost universal experience that it doesn't matter how well you do, it doesn't matter how many awards you win, or whether you're a New York Times bestseller, there's always a little part of you. Dude, it's like, you know what? What if I'm faking it, or what if I've ran out of good ideas? What? What if you know that there were two books in me, and that's it. So I, I tend to find, though, it's a healthy place to be, really, to to not quite know if the if this is the one or not, because if you're so arrogant as to feel like, wow, this is definitely a great book, it almost certainly fucking isn't. And if you think, Well, if you genuinely think, yeah, this is terrible, well you're probably right. So to be in that murky in between stage, it's good for the art, but maybe not so good for mental health and well being.

CJ Leede 1:25:47
I don't know that mental health is is conducive to being the best artist. I don't know. I mean, I think that's kind of the question I've been asking myself. Is like, and obviously you want to find happiness and mental health in life, but like, I don't know, I think for me, I guess a question I'm pondering these days is like, is it not a bit our job as horror writers especially, is it like, is it not my job to sit and look at death sometimes and really think, like, What is this and what is fear and what is mortality? And those things are hard to ask, but maybe, maybe those are the questions I'm meant to be asking as a horror author, and maybe then I can kind of bring that back to the world. And you know, if it's a bit of a strain in the moment, ultimately, I think it can bring a lot of fulfillment. So maybe one of my dogs is they've been so present in this I apologize. One of them is digging, digging a burrow in the couch right now. So sorry if you can hear that

Michael David Wilson 1:26:56
so good. And they're rescue dogs. They've had a hard enough time. As it is, we're not gonna reprimand them on Mrs. Horror. I mean, we're coming towards the end of the time that we have together today, but we've got some questions from Sarah Langan via Patreon. And yes, the Sarah Langan, wow, yeah, she she's so we've covered a little bit of this, but not extensively, but she writes that she's curious as to what your journey toward becoming a writer was, and whether you wanted to do this as a kid, and what your formative influences were.

CJ Leede 1:27:44
Wow, this, I love her. It's, I think we've covered some of it. Let me think maybe what I haven't talked about, I this sounds like a fake thing, but as a kid, I was really into Shakespeare, like Shakespeare movies, I really especially loved the Elizabeth Taylor Taming of the Shrew those I watched those movies a lot, and I've always loved Shakespeare, and that's part of why I thought I wanted to be An actor in my early 20s, and I was doing that in New York, in different Shakespeare productions around the city, and I never loved it as much as other actors did. It turns out I just love the language. But a thing about Shakespeare, besides just the sentences, which are so delicious and amazing and kind of light up my brain in such huge ways. I love the way the plays are structured and how we often have this like full cast act five, you know at the end that everyone is back on stage for some reason, and usually in a big setting, party setting, or back at the castle where it all began. And I always noticed Joe Hill does it in his books. A lot of authors, you know, do it now, but it's a I love, like a full cast, big act five. And I think about that all the time. So I guess to answer the question, like all the influences we talked about before, but yeah, Shakespeare was, like, always my favorite, and I, I've always loved reading his work and kind of complicated human dynamics, and it's so funny. It's like, really funny, like, it's very tragic. It can be very funny. It can be sexual, it can be sad. Can be people have a lot of anger, and it's kind of like this full spectrum of human emotion, and so probably on some level, my whole life, I've been in love with writing, because I've been in love with his writing, but I never thought maybe that I could do it myself. And it really took a lot of. A lot of random turns. I went to a boarding school for performing arts before I moved to Manhattan. So I lived in Massachusetts, freshman, sophomore, junior years of high school. And I, you know, it just, I loved it, but it never quite fit. And a teacher once pulled me aside at the end and said, I think you're smart. Maybe try college. And I had not planned to go to college. I didn't want to go to college, and then I was very lucky that person said that I ended up going to college. And then, you know, it's that same thing, like I kind of stumbled into the writing. I don't know, sometimes the universe just kind of opens doors, and I've been extremely lucky to have those doors open, and then I just always try to be listening and say yes when strange opportunities come. And I've been very lucky. I don't know, did I answer that question at all

Michael David Wilson 1:31:01
you did. And I think that you know Shakespeare and this intermingling of horror and humor and sexuality makes so much sense with your work. I mean, it's all baked into everything you do.

CJ Leede 1:31:18
I guess it is. I mean, I would like, so hesitate to be like, there's any, you know? I mean, it's just like, I could never, could never do what Shakespeare, whoever he or she was, or they, whatever they did, was fucking amazing. But, yeah, very influenced. I love language. Who doesn't love language? Like, it's such a glorious thing that we get to try to communicate throughout this human life, and these like big feelings that we're trying to put words to all the time.

Michael David Wilson 1:31:49
Yeah, oh, yeah, absolutely. And, I mean, before we go, as we said, headlights is your next book, and we will be chatting about it again in a few months. So we will be chatting again in a few moments about it. And so I'd love to know, what can you share with our listeners as way of a preview for headlights, and why should someone pre order it?

CJ Leede 1:32:21
Well, first I actually want to say I should have said a second ago I read Sarah langan's most recent book, Trad wife, and it's freaking amazing, just as like everybody in the world needs to know that it was one of my favorite things I read this last year, as far as headlights goes. This is the book where I really, like I kind of looked the beast in the eye and said, What is death, and where do our loved ones go? And can we reach them, and do they want us to and it's a Colorado book. It's like people are waking up on the side of the highway with no memory of how they got there, and they are naked and wearing the skin of someone they've never met, with a human hair tied around their tongues. And this is a phenomenon that's been going on for a while, on and off, and the detective in charge of it has to come back try and solve the case finally, and face a lot of really horrific shit from his past in order to solve it, and gets kind of implicated in the case himself. And it's like very Colorado. There's tons of The Shining, very explicitly, tons of The Shining, lots of like horror fan easter eggs in there, all the Colorado things, and there's also cannibalism and ghosts and, yeah, all that stuff. There's a 20 page sex scene that I didn't have to cut down, which is insane. So there you go, something to read for.

Michael David Wilson 1:33:57
Yeah, I asked you to give us a reason why someone should pre order you gave us all that no as a compliment. It's like, why should we pre order it? Because this book literally has everything. It has everything you've ever wanted in one

CJ Leede 1:34:14
book, maybe too much. It's long. I mean, I'm not trying to, like, unsell my book, yeah, read it, please.

Michael David Wilson 1:34:25
All right. Well, I wonder where can our listeners and viewers connect with you?

CJ Leede 1:34:32
Um, I only really update my Instagram, so siege the moment. Is my Instagram gonna redo my website soon? Theoretically, but we'll be announcing tour soon for the summer, so I want to meet people. Please come say hi.

Michael David Wilson 1:34:51
All right, seize that opportunity and go to one opportunity. Yeah. Okay. Hey. Well, do you have any final thoughts to leave everyone with?

CJ Leede 1:35:05
No, I really loved talking to you guys. It's crazy. I thought we had talked before, but maybe I just had, like, a future vision of this great conversation we would have tonight. We knew it was always coming to this.

Michael David Wilson 1:35:21
I mean, you explore many different facets in your fiction, and so maybe you have, in the future, explored some space, time continuum. What you're remembering is the conversation about headlights, which we haven't had in this linear timeline.

CJ Leede 1:35:42
And you know what? It's the best conversation ever. So everybody better tune in, because,

Michael David Wilson 1:35:48
yeah, I could not believe some of the insights that all of us had. It was like having some sort of psychedelic epiphany. Quite frankly, 800% All right. Thank you very much for joining us. Thank you.

Thank you so much for listening to CJ Leede on this is horror. Join us again next time when we will be chatting to Ronald Malfi, but if you would like that and every other episode ahead of the crowd, become our patron@patreon.com forward slash, This is horror. In addition to early episodes, you will also be able to submit questions for future interviews. And coming up soon, we will be chatting to Benson and Moorhead about their brand new film. Touch me. So if you have a question for them, head over to patreon.com, forward slash, this is horror and become a patreon today. Okay, before I wrap up a quick advert break,

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Michael David Wilson 1:38:29
Now, to close the episode, I would like to end with a quote, and today's quote is from Steven Pinker's sense of style, a book that Stephen Graham Jones recommended last episode. So here we go, classic writing with its assumption of equality between writer and reader, makes the reader feel like a genius. Bad writing makes the reader feel like a dunce, so something to consider and apply to your own writing. So with that said, I will see you in the next episode with Ronald Malfi, but until then, take care of yourself. Be good to one another. Read horror, keep on writing and have a great, great day.