Michael David Wilson 0:20
Welcome to This is horror, a podcast for readers, writers and creators. I'm Michael David Wilson, and every episode I chat with the world's best writers about writing, life lessons, creativity and much more, today is the first part in a two part conversation with Ross Jeffrey. Now this one was actually recorded back in September last year, within a few months of the first time that Ross was on the show. But I wanted to give both of those conversations some breathing room, and that is why you're now getting this one at the end of January, in the July recording with Ross, we spoke all about his writing methodology and routine, but we didn't talk much about his books, and that is why I invited him back on the show for this one. So get ready to learn much more about Ross Jeffrey and his wonderful books, including Juniper the devil's pocketbook and only the stains remain. But before any of that, a quick advert break

Bob Pastorella 1:51
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RJ Bayley 2:29
It was as if the video had unzipped my skin, slunk inside my tapered flesh and become one with me.

Bob Pastorella 2:38
From the creator of this is horror, comes a new nightmare for the digital age. The girl in the video by Michael David Wilson, after a teacher receives a weirdly arousing video, his life descends into paranoia and obsession. More videos follow, each containing information no stranger could possibly know, but who's sending them and what do they want? The answers may destroy everything and everyone he loves. The girl in the video is the ring meets fatal attraction from iPhone generation, available now in paperback, ebook and audio. Okay.

Michael David Wilson 3:08
Well, here it is. It is Ross Jeffrey on this is horror. Ross, welcome back to this is horror.

Ross Jeffery 3:22
Thank you for having me yet again. It's an absolute pleasure to be here.

Michael David Wilson 3:26
Yeah, it's a pleasure to be talking with you. And this is the point where I'd ordinarily ask, what have been the big changes since you were last on the show? I kind of know some of these changes, because we've been talking quite regularly, but for the listeners who presumably have not hacked into our WhatsApp messaging, what's been going on yet? What's been going on, both personally and professionally.

Ross Jeffery 3:57
So, personally, so it's my daughter's birthday today. She is fast asleep after a very exciting day. And earlier on this week, I finished my 14th book, which if you were listening to the last episodes, you know, I write quite a lot, but yeah, this book I started writing last year in October, and I would generally finish it in two months, but then in November, our landlord put our rent up by 1000 pounds a month to 2500 so then we kind of couldn't afford that class more than I actually earn. And then I just stopped writing for about, I think it was about seven months, and the manuscript was at about 40,000 words, and then at. Yeah, we went homeless. A friend of ours called David said, Look, come, come and live with via, you know, in my house like it's temporary accommodation, but we moved in there, put everything in storage, managed to get the mortgage, and then bought house in Wales. So we actually moved country, but not, not very far, but we're in a different country now and then this month, I re opened the word file and re read it all, and then just started afresh and in Yeah, so probably three weeks I finished the novel, so it's now about 78k yeah, all done, dusted. Our early morning texts were very inspirational to keep me on the go as you were slamming keys your end, and I'm slamming keys my end, but, yeah, it's good, good place to be, and I haven't normally, I have a little whiskey to celebrate each book when I finish it. I hadn't had the opportunity, so I'm having one Now whilst we talk

Michael David Wilson 6:11
very nice stuff. And what is the whiskey in question?

Ross Jeffery 6:16
It is a singleton, 12 year old single malt. I've got a cupboard in there full of whiskeys because parents and people keep buying me bottles for birthdays and Christmas and I don't I normally just drink it when I finished a book. So I've got loads of whiskey to drink through. But yes, very nice, recommended.

Michael David Wilson 6:39
So I think now we're finding out, actually, this is the real reason why you write so quickly, because you've set this rule that you can only drink the whiskey when you finish the story. So, yeah, we don't you all just really enjoyed, yeah, you enjoyed writing and completing books, but actually you just like drinking whiskey. And I mean, we should say as well, if it wasn't clear that, you know, last time we spoke, you were talking about you only write on Fridays for this book that you finished, you were writing, you know, probably five out of seven days a week.

Ross Jeffery 7:23
Yeah, I just because, yeah, normally it is a Friday. And the difference this time as to why I was writing every day is because it's summer holidays here and my children are off school. So when I'm my usual Friday is taken up by doing family stuff, which is great. Been to a couple of castles and other ruins in Wales. There's a lot of ruins in Wales and and, yeah, just doing that kind of stuff. So what I was doing is getting into work extra early, so I could sit down and spend like, a hour, hour and a half, just getting words on the page. And most of those sessions ended in about, yeah, like between 1.8 to 2.5k each time. And it just builds up every day. That's what happens. But, but, yes, but come September, starting a new book, and gonna be doing it on Fridays, because the rest of the week will be working, but it'd be nice quiet house. I could listen to my music and then

ponder the next book.

Michael David Wilson 8:35
Yeah, and I think we'll get into that a little bit later, because that is something that I have a vested interest in, let's say, but we're going to save that for later, because I want to talk about, you know, completing this book that you've just finished. Obviously, it has taken place during this chaotic to put it bluntly, but to also understate it, period of your life, you know, probably one of the worst periods of your life, is there some sort of psychological relief to have now done that, you know, post homelessness And when you had to put the writing on hold for a bit,

Ross Jeffery 9:24
yeah, like it was really weird, because when I, because I was writing it, and every, every day, I was getting closer to the kind of the end goal. And I think this is the because every book is different, but this one just like when I finished typing, I had the story in there, I just felt like a massive relief. It's odd because the book doesn't, doesn't deal with those kind of things, but I think it was just drenched in that kind of like, difficult period. And. And I think also just moving into this kind of new home where hopefully I will write many, many more books. But having that first book written in this home is kind of like the new starting point.

Michael David Wilson 10:15
And I assume, too, from what we've spoken about before, that this was a book which kind of took the longest, and meant that you had this break between not just drafts, but a break within a draft. What was it like to have put it aside when it was incomplete, and then not only return to it, but obviously because of that period of time, have to re read everything. Do you think it enhanced the process? Do you think there were challenges? Is it something that you would now having done it actively and deliberately? Look at doing again.

Ross Jeffery 10:58
I don't think I would ever do it again? I think I don't know if we spoke about it in the in the podcast last time, or if it was in the after bit, but like when I'm writing like I need to get so if I'm writing a chapter on i or a couple of chapters, I make sure I've got enough time to write that chapter completely, so don't have to come back to it. And this one, yeah, I don't think I would ever do it again, because I was rereading it, because I printed it off to reread. And then as I was rereading it, I was, I was like, just adding notes to kind of like bits, because although I'd stopped writing, my head had carried on writing. So when I sat down to write it, I kind of knew the direction, and it kind of changed a little bit from my original whether that was the external factors coming in on me or not, but, and I was like, right, okay, I need to remember that when I go back to edit the whole thing, and I made loads of notes, and rereading it was good and helped hone it. I think the only way I'm going to tell if because the voice of the piece as well, because when I started writing it, I was in one frame of mind, before anything had happened, and then after, is after, and all that stuff had gone by, and I think I got back into the headspace. I think the only person that's going to tell me if there's a definite kind of change, is going to be my editor, Andy, when he gets hold of it, Austrian Spencer is his kind of handle on social media, and it'd be interesting to see if he can see where I stopped and where I restarted. But from what I've done and read and, you know, I finished it and I was rereading bits as I was writing it, I think I've, I think I've successfully managed to keep the tone all the way through, aided by listening to the same soundtrack when I was writing it. So that's kind of hopefully underscored everything I've written. But yeah, like leaving something that long like I was because I've never done that before. So I was also doubting myself before I started writing. And I almost was going to just leave it and put it on hold and just maybe never pick it up again, because it was quite a obviously, that whole experience, but that would be like, partly reanimating a body. So I was just like, now I've got, I've got to give it like a heart and lungs, and finally, just bring it to life. So yeah, just dives back in and and it just felt so good. And to be back writing, to be kind of just going about my daily routine and thinking about the book and, you know, on my commute to Bristol from Wales, like just making notes in my head, so that when I got to work, I was like, Oh yeah, that's where that bit goes. So yeah, it was great. But yeah, I would never. It worked. I say never, but hopefully I'll never have to leave a book so long before I finish it. And yeah, it's, I don't know, you know, it might work for some people, but for me, it was driving me nuts that there was a half finished book just waiting for me.

Michael David Wilson 14:41
And you said that during the writing, you were listening to one album on repeat. This is something that we've mentioned a little bit offline and in our private conversations. But what I'm wondering is, how do you decide. Read what album to listen to. Is it just a case of, this is an album that I really like? Or do you try to look at kind of a link between the album and the tone that you're going for in the novel? Or are there other factors at play.

Ross Jeffery 15:24
So any music I listen to is purely instrumental, that's one major thing I tend to try because there's a few composers that I like, so like Hans Zimmer, Benjamin wallfish, they're two of my favorites. The Newton brothers do some great stuff as well. And then James Newton, Howard, I think that's kind of like my favorite when, kind of choosing a soundtrack is normally, I'll kind of think of the themes of the book and kind of maybe even the genre. So I wrote a book recently called Cradle of glass, which is with my agent, Elizabeth cops, and that's a kind of bit more science fiction. It's still got its feet in the horror, but it's, I'd say it's science fiction first. And for that one, I listen to interstellar like, on repeat, like, and that's how I listen to the song, just so I can make sure that the the story in my mind is just underscored by that kind of tone of the album. And for this one that I just finished, I was listening to alien Romulus by Benjamin wallfish, and, yeah, like it's that one's a bit darker, and there's a lot of kind of strings and things like that. So I think that helped keep the mood of the book. And it's so weird, because when I listen to an album so frequently when I'm writing, if I hear that music when I'm not at the desk, I can remember certain scenes that I wrote whilst it was playing, and they played back in my mind. So when I got back to and I listened to them on vinyl, normally when I'm at home. So this one was a bit strange, because I was listening to it on my phone in the office, typing and yeah, it just helped ease me back into the book, because I could just feel all the kind of emotions and everything when I was writing it previously were just flowing back into it. I think listening to the music when I'm writing as well. Also helps pace the book, which is odd, because it keeps on, kind of like the tracks change, but for me, the pace is in the whole album, so it's just listening to that and then just getting the flow of it and deciding on an album, normally is either because I buy quite a lot of vinyl records, so it's normally one that I may have bought that I've not listened to yet, because sometimes I buy vinyls without having seen the film, because I want to just Listen to the music without the films. Kind of I of influence. So I do have on a every now and then I'll probably have like, five or six to pick from, and and then, yeah, when I'm writing a book, I will buy the if I haven't got it, and I think maybe I've watched a film, and I'm like, Oh, that's a really good soundtrack. I always buy myself a copy, just so I've got, like, a little keepsake afterwards as well. But I've got a few lined up for my next project, so I've just got those in the background, which I'm kind of listening to to just see which one would be the tone for the next book, but yeah, and it's something I only developed. Kind of think when I wrote The Devil's pocket book was the first time that I'd got a soundtrack and just listened to that whilst I was writing. Normally, I just have either silence or just other music on in the background with words, which is a nightmare, because I was writing Juniper once, and I had John Benford playing in the background, and I wrote a whole paragraph that was just his, his words, not mine. But yeah, so now I just listen to instrumentl, and that's mainly Josh malerman's influence, because. Is, I think he does similar technique. And I was just like, well, that sounds good. I'll try that and not look back.

Michael David Wilson 20:07
Yeah, I can't listen to music with words unless it's so obscure black metal that I can't make out the words. But actually, because I listen to a lot of extreme metal, I found that with a lot of death metal, I can't listen to it because I've got quite good at just tapping in and knowing exactly what they're saying, even though it's in this growly voice. But black metal is often distorted enough, and it's like, just, just don't concentrate on the lyrical part, and you'll be fine and it will be instrumental. But as I said to you in a text message, sometimes I have to be careful too, because if the soundtrack is too dramatic, even though there aren't words I'm tapping into, just like I'm enjoying that music too much and it's becoming distracting. So yeah, I almost have to start writing. Put something on and just see, is this the vibe? Is this allowing me to write to it. So at the moment, I've been listening to a lot of albums by the band Russian circles that just seems to have the right kind of balance in terms of what I need to just hone in and to focus on the work. And I mean, you're absolutely right that if we repeat a band or an album enough, then when we hear it later, it brings us back to the place that we were when we were listening to it. And I've definitely found that with writing, but I found it with other events in my life. And funnily enough, when I was reading Nosferatu by Joe Hill. A lot of that I was commuting to work on a noisy train, so I just put something on to to get rid of that. And mostly it was the soundtrack to the video game Silent Hill Downpour. So if ever I hear that, or probably if I were to go back and play the game, I'd then just be thinking of the Joe Hill book, which it's kind of cool in a way. It's combining two horror Yeah, just mesh together. Yeah. I'm expecting Charlie Manx in his massive car from nosferatus, from Nosferatu to show up, but actually it's going to be a kind of mutated nurse. So yeah, there's no question attached to that, waiting for some kind of response. Like it's interesting,

Ross Jeffery 22:57
that's a interesting flip on the Silent Hill and Nosferatu. Yeah.

Michael David Wilson 23:06
I mean, I'm kind of down for anything that Joe Hill does, and I'm down for any Silent Hill game. So if they want some weird collaboration, that's absolutely fine front of the queue, yeah, just Charlie Manx turning up in Silent Hill. What's gonna happen next? Yeah? I mean, maybe not a lot. There's not a lot of children in Silent Hill, which is kind of his, his MO. He's just gonna turn around,

Ross Jeffery 23:38
turn around and walk away. So, yeah.

Michael David Wilson 23:42
But you know, talking about books, last time we spoke, we didn't even get into any of your books or any specifics, so it seems smart if we start with the Juniper trilogy. So I mean, firstly, Did you always know it was going to be a trilogy, and if not, what were the seeds that presented that to you?

Ross Jeffery 24:12
The short answer is, No, I didn't think it was going to be I didn't even think it was going to be a book when I wrote it. So because it was during covid, and I was just like I had more time, and I'd written short stories before, thought I'd give it a go writing something longer. So I started writing Juniper, and just absolutely loved it, like there's so I might be different, but I love the difference between writing a short story and a long story. I say long because, you know, novellas can be longer, but the way I was able to kind of riff and go off in different tangents and things like that, it's just not what you. Can do in short stories. And I just loved that, like just expanding characters with just kind of little, kind of just tidbits that you could just chuck in there and be like, Oh yeah, that's quite cool. I'll add that to that character, and I'll do that. And and then the town started to kind of just build around these characters. And I was just just taken with it, which is weird, because I created it. So I was just like, Oh yeah, that person could live there, and that could do that. It wasn't until I started writing, because I really like writing horrible characters, and it wasn't until it's like, Ryan, weird characters and, like, nasty characters that I was like, Oh, actually, I think this town just by the introduction of Klein, who's the antagonist in June. But I was like, yeah, he's got a whole back story that I'd really love to delve into, but I can't in this because I wanted to keep it short, because I didn't want to lose control of it. And then as I finished the book, loved the process of it, and yeah, I haven't stopped since. But like, soon as I finished it, I was like, Yeah, I'm gonna write a novel. And it was, yeah, like, I literally finished that, put it aside, edited it, you know, had other kind of things going on, which we spoke about in the previous podcast. And then I was just like, Yeah, I'm going to write a full novel, because that's what you doing it. And I sat down, and I was just contemplating what I was going to do, and I wanted to do something a bit different, so I wrote tone, which is the prequel to juniper. So we went backwards kind of 15 years, and the story centered around Klein, kind of well, doesn't really center around him. He's in it, but as a younger person, and you kind of get to see how he became the person that he was in Juniper. And I loved writing that book. I love writing all my books, but that book in particular, like it. I felt like I'd grown when I was writing it. I felt that it just all fell into place. And then when I and that was nominated for Bram Stoker Award, which was in my mind, was absolutely mental. Yeah, because I'd written Juniper, lots of stuff was said about that, and then I wrote tone, and it just blew me away, like I didn't expect it to be read as widely as it was. I didn't expect it to be nominated for an award, and then it was also not nominated for a splatter punk award in the same year. And it just blew me away, because I'm just sitting here writing, never written before, and just started picking up, well, picking up a pen. I don't do that, typing on the computer. And just made like, some connections with podcasters and like book reviewers and things like that. And like Sadie Hartman was a massive champion of the books, which was incredible. And then, yeah, like Michael Clark and I met lots of people through writing tome who are still dear friends, and that was great. And and then I wrote a couple of books in between, and I kind of thought the story wasn't finished. Had lots of people asking me if there was going to be another book. And then the weirdest thing happened was that publisher contacted me out of the blue and said that they wanted, they wondered if there was going to be a trilogy. And I said, Yeah. I said, I haven't written the third book, but yes, it's going to be and that publisher said, Okay, we want to re release Juniper tome, and we want the third book. And I was like, okay, as I said, I've not written the third book, but I can. I can do that. And that's the first time I ever wrote to a deadline. And I don't, I've never, I wouldn't recommend it. I don't really like it. Felt a lot of pressure, because also it's a third book. I didn't want it to be rubbish. And then I just, as you know, from my sketchbooks and stuff, just sat down, started sketching stuff out, working out kind of structure and things. And then I thought, Okay, well, this book is going to be set 15 years after juniper. So. Goes Juniper, then backwards, and then right forwards to the kind of end. And there's characters that pop up through all the books, so you can kind of follow people throughout. And yeah, and it just spilled out of me quicker than I thought it would, because I was writing to a deadline. But, and then the publisher that said that they would do it, then took loads of pre orders and then decided they weren't going to publish it. So then I just re released. I released it by myself. The annoying thing was, is I took juniper and tome out of publication for it, and it had been out of publication. Well, basically I won, I was nominated for the Bram Stoker award, and then a couple of months later, I just stopped it so it couldn't be purchased anywhere. And that annoyed me slightly, because I, you know, it was nominated for a brown stoke award, so I'm assuming there would have been some interest in people wanting to buy it and read it, but things happen, you move on. And yeah, so I re released them. Had Daniel Sarah covers made for them all which were going to be with the publisher, but the publisher allowed me to keep those. So I re released them all in hardback, and they all fit together. So if you hold them all face up, it's just a long picture of juniper the way across through the seasons that are in the books. And yeah, and I like it. It's a great little series. I Lots of people come to read the rest of my stuff through juniper and tone and yeah, and they just stick around, which is lovely. I've got a good little following through that. I'd love them to be read more widely, but I'm happy with the kind of who's reading them, picking them up, and I hope as well, when you read them. It kind of shows my growth as a author. Because obviously when I read well, when I went back and read Juniper, when I was writing a third book, just when I was trying to just make sure I didn't mess up the timelines and stuff I was I was also like, this is a great book, but yeah, I've grown since I wrote it, and I could tell when I wrote it. So that's how doesn't put anyone off. It's great book, but, but I could see my progression, which is great because it shows I'm developing and moving forward. But yeah, so answer the question was, No, I didn't believe it was going to be a trilogy, but it turned out to be a very good one.

Michael David Wilson 32:41
Yeah, I certainly see the Juniper trilogy as a season of your work. And then kind of, if we look at particularly, only the stains remain the devil's pocket book and I died too, but they haven't buried me yet. That feels another kind of season that feels like this is grief horror. This is what Josh Malerman was talking about when he said something along the lines of, you are the master of grief horror. And so we're going to get to that season in a bit. But for the Juniper trilogy season. I mean, something that I'm sure will stand out to read as if they're familiar with who you are and where you're from, is that you decided you know for your first book to set it in America, and it's got such a distinct American voice. It's, it's almost a little bit there's a disconnect. It's like, Wait, did, did Russ become American? What? What's happened here? Did you live a past life and you've tapped into it, because it feels very authentic. And so, I mean, firstly, let's talk about the decision to set it in America, to embark upon writing this series in America, even though you've admitted that you didn't even know it was going to be a book or a trilogy, so it wasn't so conscious to commit for such a long time, and then also, what were some of the challenges of that?

Ross Jeffery 34:26
Well, thank you. That is a very huge compliment. So when I decided to write it, I think I've spoken about this on a couple of other podcasts as well, but, and I think we spoke about it before, for me, when I was growing up, horror was American, you know, I know we had James Herbert and other great British horror writers, but, like I grew up, not really reading much, but watching a ton. Of horror, and all of it, all, what I would say, the good stuff, the majority of it, was all American. And it just seems to be the way that that's how I viewed horror, is that it was American first, and then we tried to get in there. And, yeah, when I started writing, I was just like, yeah, no, I'm gonna set it in this kind of, like, weird, kind of almost pre apocalyptic town where you're not quite sure what's going on. Because, you know, I did a bit of research before. And like, just like some of the isolation in America that is kind of like poverty and isolation and families that you know live in the sticks and don't see anyone for like, months or years, and I forgot what that family is called, but the family that Texas Chainsaw Massacre was kind of like, based around I was just like, there must be places in America that are kind of like towns that are just on the periphery that, you know, people just drive through or round and don't really stop. And I was just like, Yeah, I'm going to do that. Do that. That's great. And then I was like, Oh yeah, crap, I'm English. I need to really nail this, because, you know, if I get things wrong, people are going to notice if the language is off slightly, if I've got kind of British kind of flourishes in there of characters saying something like, Oh, you, you blooming better come back here. I was like, they're gonna know. So I just tried really hard to just not do that. I had a another writer called Joseph sale. He he helped me edit this one. I was friends with him beforehand, and he does editing, and is a very great writer as well. And so he helped me kind of hone it once it was done. And, you know, yeah, I think, I think there was one thing that I got wrong, and people pointed it out, was that I think something about the road kill. I think I said something like a can't remember if it was an armadillo. It's been a long time since I wrote like, maybe an armadillo or something was just run over in the road. And then they were like, well, because you mentioned the surrounding outskirts and, like, what's near it, that animal is not like native to that part of America. It's somewhere else. And so that's, you know, it ruined the whole book for me.

Michael David Wilson 37:59
You should have said, wow, if it was not native, but it showed up and got random, or what kind of shit out of X Files, in what dimension was opened up?

Ross Jeffery 38:12
But, but, yeah, like, you know, when I released it, it was great, like, it did really well. And, you know, lots of because it's, I don't know, I think. And also, this came apparent when I, as I've been writing, but the horror scene in America, and it's obviously due to population, but most, most, well, I'd probably say the majority of my readership is American, and I'm not sure why that is. I don't know whether British people are just a bit like, oh, what's horror. But lots of my readership are American. And, you know, when I released it, they kind of took me to heart, and the book and, yeah, and some of the issues I like, not issues, but things I have to think about a lot were just the Englishness and the American isms and, you know, like a car boot is a trunk, and, like, just all those kind of bits that, just to give it the flavor that it needs, I had to just make sure I went for it with a fine tooth comb and just pulled anything out that was like pants and trousers and all that kind of stuff. I'm really grateful that you said that it sounded American and like the characters, because that I wanted the way they spoke to be authentic. And if, yeah, if you've seen that that's, that's amazing. And then with with tone, that was, I, that was a whole different ball game. That was, I had to spend a lot of time with the developmental editor with that one, because I was that one set in a prison, the whole book. Is set in the prison. So I was obviously writing about a period of time and about the American prison system, and, like, they opened my eyes to lots of things, because there was certain, like, the way I visualized it on the page. And they were like, Yeah, you might have to change that, because at that period, there wouldn't have been that type of thing, and I was just that. It was incredible. And for the life of me, I can't think of the editor that I use for that one. I only use them for that book, but they were recommended to me, and they did a marvelous job at it. And that's what editors do. And you know, they're incredible. And, yeah, certainly that one was, was, was great. And by the time I written a third one, I was like, I kind of know this town. I know how I'm speaking. I know what they're going to sound like, and I've already mapped it out. So I kind of had that kind of landscape. And there's some, like, there's scenes in each of the I've done, off topic here, but there's scenes in each of the books that that I think, like, when I wrote them, I was just like, Oh crap. Like, it made me like, shudder, because they were a little bit like, oh. So I know that they're kind of the horror is in them, and it's well written, because it scared me when I was writing it. But yeah, there's, there's some scenes, and like to hear people like when they review them, or have done a video review, or whatever, just when they highlight those scenes in particular. I was like, well, that's when I actually scared myself when I was writing which is great, because it came across on the page, but yeah, like for me, horror has always been American, but after, kind of, after those books, I was kind of like, No, I want to reclaim horror as being English as well, well, British. I was like, Yeah, I'm going to start setting my books here, just because it takes away a lot of me just having to remember all the things that I had to learn during that trilogy. And yeah, we got a lot of horror here as well.

Michael David Wilson 42:16
I have plenty to say about British offers writing for a predominantly American audience, or not so much writing for but having an awareness that that is the bulk of your readers, because it's, you know, a similar thing for me. But before I get into that, I do just have to say, I mean, with juniper generally, I God, doesn't there's a rawness to it. It's almost like the Garage Band recording, but in a really good way, like I felt like you just didn't give a fuck in terms of content, in terms of convention, in terms of pushing the limits. I mean, I think it was, it was tome that won the splatter punk award. But if anything ever just embedded that punk rock, splatter punk, no shits given ascetic, it's the first book. It's juniper and I mean, from right off the bat to like, you know, within the god, I guess it was the first few pages just revealing these interbred caps. And what is, what is going on here, there was something of a kind of younger Jack Ketchum and an unfiltered Jack Ketchum, which sounds ridiculous for anyone who's read his work, because when was he filtered? When was there censorship? But God, Bob talks often about fearless writing just took it to a whole new level. I don't think fear ever entered the equation for you is, I mean, if I didn't know that you only drink whiskey to celebrate the end of books, I thought this was some drug fueled, crazed book. But you know, like everything I'm saying, I mean it as a compliment. And you know how you didn't get canceled or upset a tremendous amount of people? And actually, you got the opposite, you know? You got someone like Sadie Hartman, Mother horror, actually championing it. Yeah, incredible

Ross Jeffery 44:36
when I think of the content and like, just, yeah, how boss the wall, crazy it is. And, yeah, all the cat stuff. And just like, I had a lot of stuff in my mind, like lots of different stories and things, and I was just like, right, let's just go for this. And let's just see where it goes. And you. I know, like, you know, at that point, I started reading quite a lot. So I was like, you know, I had read Jack Ketchum and Adam Neville and Paul Tremblay and Josh Malerman and stuff like that. And I was just kind of like, and also read a lot at like, loads of, like, indie writers, which when I was reading them, I was like, man, these guys are on fire. Like, these are so good. And at that point I never, like, when I was reading those, I kind of like, just felt like I'd snuck in the back door somewhere, and I was like, Oh, look, all these amazing authors that are just, like, releasing these books. But like, when I talk to people about them, they never heard of them. And then, and then I was like, this is like a gold mine of, like, talent and and I was just like, Yeah, let's just go for it. Like, you know, I've not written a book if this turns like, because at that point, I was like, I don't even know if this is going to be a book. Like, I was just like, Yeah, let's just go for it. Let's just write this about this crazy town with crazy people in it. And, you know, it's a little bit weird, a little bit crazy, but I just needed something to hang that craziness on. And I think with Betty and Janet in it, and then having Klein as the kind of protagonist, well, antagonist. It just worked and and there is a kind of, like, say, twist in it. A lot of readers don't get it, but the book still plays out if they don't get it, or if they do get it. And I think that was one of the keys, was because when people have read it and they've got it, they've just been like, Man, this is the most crazy, the depraved thing I've ever read. And then, like, some people are just like, oh, or did you, what did you get from it? And then they'd say, we'll have to go off chat to talk about it. And then they tell it, and then they tell them, and then they're like, oh my goodness, yeah. So I think that is the kind of like it was. The key to the book is that it's written in such a way that if you get it, then all these dominoes fall into place that have taken part throughout the book, and you're just sickened even more by but, yeah, at the time, I was just like, let's just have fun. Let's just do it. And, and then I, you know, I think tome is a very good follow up with the kind of the tone of the book or the series. And, yeah, no idea why I haven't been canceled. Who knows. But, yeah, I just like pushing limits and you know, and the thing I think that people forget sometimes is that the person behind those words is an actual human. And although we write these things, it's not how we are as a person. And you know, I've had a lot of people that speak to me, and you know, even family, when they've read a book, or friends, they read a book, and they're just like, I can't believe that you that came out of your mind, because you don't come across like this person at all, like you're quite reserved, and you don't, you know, jump on and, like, pile on arguments and things or, you know, you don't, don't have many opinions. So I'm just like, yes, because I don't, and I just like writing and the characters just, I'm just giving them life on the page, and a lot of that is through people that I've met. I've met a lot of horrible people, and I just kind of store that stuff up. And I'm just like, if I hear something and I think, Oh, that is that you are a despicable person. I'm like, but I could use that. I just store these things away, and then they just give life to characters that people absolutely hate, but that person is not the person who's written it. It's a character on the page. I think a lot of readers sometimes forget that that and I think Eric larocker is a perfect example, because he gets absolutely slated all the time, and he's an absolutely lovely person. But but they have to deal with all this kind of backlash of old, they're absolutely sick and twisted. And you know that they must do that in their actual lives and all this. And it's like, no, they're writing a book. Like, just give them a break. But, yeah, like, who knows, but I'm going to keep writing the kind of crazy stuff that I do, and seem to be working people like it, yeah, but that was also a season, as we say so, the season of juniper. Now we're doing a season of grief, and then might be a season of kind of like horror, sci fi. Who knows. Who's. Knows where this is gonna

Michael David Wilson 50:01
go, Yeah, well, I don't know where it's gonna go, but I'm sure it won't be a season of calm or a season of happy cozies, romance books. But I mean, you mentioned Eric larocker, and I'm I'm so glad that, you know, in spite him having a lot of detractors and getting a lot of hate and shit, I'm so glad that he's also got a massive fan base that are really into the vision that he's creating, because, I mean goodness, he relentlessly delivers these books anyway. No holds barred, authentically. Eric larocker, but if you weren't getting those fans as well as the detractors, it's gonna be tough for your psyche. I mean, I don't know if it's it's tough anyway. If, if it is, then he just plows through it.

Ross Jeffery 51:04
Yeah, I think it must be, you know, one he's absolutely, he's an amazingly talented author, but, you know, I think, yeah, if he didn't have the fan base that he had, it must be such an isolating, awful place to be like because I've read some of the comments that people really leave on his books, because they just pop up. I don't go looking for him. But and I was, if I was facing that day in, day out, I would just, yeah, I don't know it would be really difficult. But Eric, if you're listening, always here.

Michael David Wilson 51:44
Oh yeah, Eric knows that we are big fans of his work at this is horror. And I'm sure we'll be talking very soon for the the new one that's coming out. So keep that is correct? Yeah, it is. He's announced a hell of a lot of books coming out, doing a UK tour as well. Oh, my God, bath.

Ross Jeffery 52:11
I think which is my nearest one? So I might try and get down.

Michael David Wilson 52:15
Have you met in person before? No.

Ross Jeffery 52:18
So when I was coming up in the world. As they say, Me and Eric just started chatting and become very good friends. You know, I've called him numerous times on the eve of, well, the evening of the Stoker's to, like, have a chat and wishing, wishing best. And, yeah, we chat often. We haven't met we haven't chat for a little while, but I've not met him. Met them in person, but I'm really it's in Bath, but I think it's during the week, but I'm going to try my hardest to get there, because I'd love to see him and just give him a cuddle, shoulder to if he needs it, with all those bad reviews, but I'm there for you, Eric, you

Michael David Wilson 53:02
know, yeah, oh, yeah. And, I mean, before to kind of shift towards your decision to write, you know, the rest of your books set in Britain. I mean, you haven't publicly said, you know, you're always gonna write in Britain. That's not a firm line, but there is this challenge that I sometimes find too, because what we're both doing is we're we're setting work in the UK, and now me setting some in Japan as well. But we know that our core audience is in America, so and now, and also, I mean often the publisher, the agent, the film manager, so every professional is in America. So when you're writing these books set in the UK. Are you deliberately writing it in British English? Are you deliberately using British English spelling? Are you using British English words? Do you ever make a deliberate and conscious choice to use a bit of an Americanism, or to soften it, because you know that a lot of your readers are in America, so what are the decisions that you're making in that regard?

Ross Jeffery 54:33
So the decisions I'm making are normally informed to me by my editor, but I would go into it and be like, right? This is, I'm writing this in British English, you know, I don't want any kind of American isms. So if you spot those whilst you're editing, I was like, You need to change them. And that was just a conscious kind of like, as I was like, I'm gonna. Been writing about places in Britain and the stuff here. I was like, it needs to read like that. And, and, you know, I had thought, you know, that's that might alienate some American readers. And, you know, have thought about that, but I was like, we're just gonna go with it, and we're going to see what happens. And you know, I've not had any like blow back from any of the publishers that I've gone to in America. So, you know, I'm with Clash trueborn Press, cemetery gates, media. Who else is that can't remember off topic, but anyway, but I've had no blow back regarding those kind of stories that I've sent their way. They've fully got on board with the vision and the story. And I think if you've got the if the stories there, you don't have to worry about kind of the alienation, because people will just be pulled through. And, you know, I read, you read, like, tons of American horror. And, you know, I know Americans that read lots of, like British horror. So it's just, there's just not that much going the other way. But, but I think, yeah, like, I'd be lying if I didn't say I was kind of like nervous with the ones that were just set in Britain, and kind of being like, is it going to do? Well, is it going to are people going to get it? And I proper, go all out on the Britishness, like, I'm from London, so I chuck in loads of Cockneys Ryan and slang in there as well, and everything just, just to give it the authenticity that I want. And you know, some of the books, obviously, when I was living in Bristol, I was writing about places in Bristol. And then obviously, they're all real places. And you know, when I want to talk about driving from one place to another in a book, all the roads are exactly what like. It's exactly the same. But yeah, so when I was writing about in Bristol, there's lots of the kind of the bristolian dialect in there, and the characters speak with that twang. Not all of the characters are Bristol in but that is in there. And now I'm living in Wales, I'm going to start using this area as kind of the bedrock for some other kind of horrors, and we'll go from there and just see how it goes. But, yeah, I really like it. I think the next book I'm writing is set back in America. So you'll have me back for a little bit, and we'll just, we'll just see what the kind of sales are that for that one I like, but like, the sales are good. Like, I'm not, I'm not seeing a dip in kind of those horrors, and particularly, I die too, but they haven't buried me yet blew up, so that that was great sales, and that's really British and set in Bristol, and so I think, yeah, it's either my readership is very, is growing, and they're very, what's the word? Keene to keep reading me. But I also know that that book has, like, gone really wide in terms of distribution, which I've not had before, and it's sold really well, and Barnes and Nobles across America keep on buying it and putting in the stock. So I'm reaching a demographic that I hadn't ever dreamed of, whether that's through Clash's kind of statement as being the publisher or booksellers really pushing it because they've read it and they like it, who knows. But that book is doing good numbers, and I'm excited for them to be re releasing Devil's pocketbook, which has been out of publication since a publisher that shall not be named when under and took royalties. But anyway, but yeah, I'm looking forward to them having that book, because that that book, special folklore. Yeah, it's, that is very British, set in Cornwall in a place called Paul perro. Lots of horror, lots of grief, lots of suffering, good suffering. But it's, yeah, it's been obviously out of publication for over a year, and I'm just really excited for it to get back on the market, and with clash as well, and the sales of I buy two, I'm hoping that lots of other kind of Barnes and Nobles will start carrying it because of the success of the other book. We shall see. I've forgotten the question, but I think that's a good answer.

Michael David Wilson 1:00:03
Well, I mean, the question was talking about, you know that decision when you have the American audience, but you're setting something in the UK, and I mean, certainly, what you're doing is similar to what I've done when I've set something in the UK. It's like it's in the UK. So we're using British English. Was using British spellings. We're using British references. That's it. But I'm kind of at this interesting place now where I'm setting more and more things in Japan. So now there's all sorts of kind of dilemmas and quandaries. And I mean, for example, living here in Japan, I meet more Americans than I do Brits. And then when I'm speaking to Japanese people in English. They are more familiar with American English than they are British English. And so one of the things it's done and probably hosting this as our podcast where we speak more with Americans as well. It's almost like I'm kind of fluid with whatever I'm using, British or American English, and everything has merged into one. And so rather than a word being, oh, this is what the Brits say, This is what the Americans say, they're just synonyms. They're just alternative words. So I mean to actually represent a Brit living in Japan, you would probably have the mostly used British English, but occasionally American English. And it's like, sometimes

Ross Jeffery 1:01:54
it's quite cool hybrid though, like, like to use that would be incredible.

Michael David Wilson 1:01:59
It is cool, but it's one of these things, and I speak into another friend where it's like, sometimes reality and authenticity can seem like an error to the people who don't know. So it's like, I'm gonna be called out potentially for making errors. When it's like, No, those are deliberate choices. This is actually the experience. But then the other, the other dilemma I have, because, particularly the the next few books that I'm working on, whilst they have Western characters as the protagonists, there are a lot of secondary characters who are Japanese, and they're speaking Japanese, but I'm translating into English, because otherwise, then the whole market's gone. And so then I often I'm thinking, well, this is a Brit translating Japanese. So actually sometimes, like, it might be very British. What they say, because that is the British equivalent, is kind of capturing the flavor of the character. But also I thought, well, sometimes, you know, you could decide, oh, this character, the translation is going to be more American. And so there's all sorts of dilemmas that have kind of jumped in now. So I suppose on that basis, if you were to set a story abroad, and you were to use characters from a different nationality, but you're obviously writing it in English. Are you going to go British English because that's who you are, or are you going to go American English because that would be the more natural translation? Or has this conversation inspired you to be like, You know what we're doing, the hybrid.

Ross Jeffery 1:04:05
Next book, all hybrid. It's quite funny because I the book I've just finished writing called Love will tear us apart. It's so it's a novel, but the the, the it's basically a found manuscript. So the person writing it is or who has written the book, not me, this person has written a book uses footnotes in it because it's a found manuscript. So the manuscript originally had lots of written kind of bits on it, but it's their first book they've ever written. So in the book, I was like, that's a really good idea. And then I started writing it, and I started doing lots of errors in it. So, you know, continually using the rule of three, so having three lots of, like, explanation. And then I thought to myself, actually, yeah, if I use footnotes. Yes, I can also take the piss a little bit and just be like, oh yeah. It's my first book. I read about the rules of three, but I don't quite understand it and and then just have them pop up throughout because, because I didn't do it with footnotes to start with. And as I was reading it, I was just like, I wrote it and I reread it, and I was like, oh yeah. People are gonna think I've gone mental because, like, I've put loads of errors in it on purpose. And I was like, I'm going to need to make sure that they don't think I've slipped backwards in my writing. But that was an interesting way of doing it. So like, I guess footnotes could be used to unlock some of that kind of hybrid thing you were talking about. Like, Yeah, who knows. I think it's a good idea. I think you should run with it. Thinks you write a trilogy of hybrid books?

Michael David Wilson 1:05:48
Well, who knows? Maybe that will happen? I mean, probably a lot of my books could be very loose. Trilogy is all part of loose series. But, yeah, yeah. I think in terms of the rule of free or any writing rules that we learn. I mean, firstly, we need to learn the rules, and then we make these conscious decisions whether we are or are not going to break them. And so I mean Chuck Palahniuk, for example. Since we're talking about the rule of three, he's like, never, never use a list of three things. Always go for two or for four. Now I'm very aware of that advice, so quite often I do, but then sometimes I just deliberately decide no free for yours. Right here, it's almost like, the more you know, the more it can almost become stifling or suffocating on I mean, you write in spite of it, but you can just think, ah, is someone gonna think I'm, oh, you didn't know that rule. It's like, No, I did. I just decided not to follow it.

Ross Jeffery 1:07:00
I'm a rogue, I'm a renegade, yeah, because I'm reading a book at the minute. So my editor, Andy, he said, he said, read this book. I think it's called dry as English. So it was just kind of a book about the craft and, like, punctuation and that. You know, we spoke on the last podcast, the fact that I struggle with it a lot. So he said, I think you'd really enjoy it. So I was reading that, and that has a lot of rules in it as well. And it was like, you know, we learn these rules, like the Oxford comma and all this kind of stuff and and it, and obviously it tells you how to write properly. And I've read in there certain bits that were like, you know, this used to be how you wrote thoughts in my like, speech mark, whoever. And then it was, like, italics. Now you just write it normally. Or, you know, some writers don't differentiate between speaking and dialog, dialog and, like, narration of the rest of it. And I was like, Okay. And there's things like, oh yeah. People tell you that you shouldn't start a sentence with AND, OR, but it's like, but sometimes just do it. I was like, yeah, just do it. Who cares?

Michael David Wilson 1:08:07
Yeah, honestly, like, I mean, I think the don't start with and, and, but is something that you learn fairly early on. But recently, I found I just kind of like doing that, and I think it elevates and makes the story better. So I think we can learn all sorts of rules, but particularly when you get a bit of experience with what you're doing, intuition and just personal ascetic is worth so much more and also because we're writing fiction and we're often like both of us were writing fiction with a strong voice. Being true to that voice is far more important than being grammatically correct or following a rule, yeah, yeah. When I'm grammatically incorrect, that is a deliberate decision.

Ross Jeffery 1:09:09
Yeah, definitely. Rule Breakers. That's that's the best way to be.

Michael David Wilson 1:09:14
That's the title of this episode, Rule Breakers with Russ Jeffrey,

Ross Jeffery 1:09:19
Rule Breakers and a shot of whiskey.

Michael David Wilson 1:09:27
Thank you so much for listening to Ross Jeffrey on this is horror. Join us again next time for the second and final part. But what if you can't wait? What if you want to be listening to more. Ross Jeffrey, right now, well, you can, all you need to do is become a patreon, a www. Nobody says www.do. They@patreon.com forward slash. This is. Horror. Not only can you listen to the next part with Ross Jeffrey, you can listen to all episodes ahead of the crowd. You'll also get the full conversation with no adverts, and you'll get that before anyone else, and they're a Patreon exclusive podcast too. So a lot of good reasons to join us. Head over to patreon.com, forward slash, this is horror, or www.patreon.com forward slash, this is horror, it'll still work if you write that triple W in it's just redundant. And support independent horror podcasting today. Patreon.com, forward slash This is horror. Okay, before I wrap up, a quick advert break,

RJ Bayley 1:10:52
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Bob Pastorella 1:11:01
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Michael David Wilson 1:12:10
Before I go, I wanted to thank all of you who continue to read, talk about and support my dark comedy novel. Dad is boy. It seems to be a little known book, but those who respond well to it really, really love it. And speaking of which, later this week, I will be talking to Greg green for his podcast and YouTube channel, and he is currently reading dad is boy, in anticipation of that, he recently had this to say over on blue sky, oh my gosh, this book is so inappropriate. I'm interviewing Michael David Wilson of the legendary podcast and publisher This is horror later this week about his book, daddy's boy, and I'm learning all kinds of colorful new British terms and aphorisms to deploy on this side of the pond. Well, hope you'll use those terms and aphorisms wisely, Greg, but thank you so much for reading dad as boy, and I can't wait to chat with you just a few days. So with that said, Until the next episode for part two with Ross Jeffery, take care of yourselves. Be good to one another. Read horror, keep on writing and have A great, great day.