Michael David Wilson 0:20
Welcome to this is horror, a podcast for readers, writers and creators. I'm Michael David Wilson and every episode, alongside my co host, Bob Pastorella, we chat with the world's best writers about writing, life, lessons, creativity and much more. Today on this is horror, I am welcoming back Josh Malerman for part two of our conversation. And this is one of these conversations that you can listen to in any order. The previous episode, 633 was part one. This is part two, but we are really just delving all across the board in terms of creative writing inspiration and the new Josh Malerman book, watching Evil Dead. He is best known for writing horror, including his books bird box, incidents around the house, Goblin and a house at the bottom of a lake, which was originally published by this is horror. So with that said, a quick advert break, and then we'll jump into the conversation.

RC Hausen 1:49
Cosmovirus, the debut cosmic horror novel by RC Housen, is now available as an audio experience featuring an original Dark synth wave score. This story will take you to the next level of terror. Come hear the story that readers are calling Barker meets Lovecraft, a Phantasm style cosmic horror, adventure and a full bore, unflinching, nihilistic nightmare. Cosmo vorce, the audio book by R c Howarth, come listen, if you dare. You

RJ Bayley 2:23
It was as if the video had unzipped my skin, slunk inside my tapered flesh, and become one with me.

Bob Pastorella 2:31
From the creator of this is horror, comes a new nightmare for the digital age. The girl in the video, by Michael David Wilson, after a teacher receives a weirdly rousing video, his life descends in a paranoia and obsession. More videos follow, each containing information no stranger could possibly know, but who's sending them and what do they want? The answers may destroy everything and everyone he loves. The girl in the video is the ring meets fatal attraction for the iPhone generation, available now in paperback, ebook and audio. Okay.

Michael David Wilson 3:01
Here it is. It is Josh Malerman on this is horror. So last time we were talking about your dilemma as to what to work on after incidents around the house, but you now know what you're working on, post watching Evil Dead. But I wonder, was that decision even harder? Because it's like now you've written, you know, a book that people are arguably calling the most scary book, The scariest book that has been out in the last few decades, change genres, invented a genre, and you've then followed it up with this inspirational writing book on the most pivotal night of your Life. So how, where on earth do you go from there? And was that a difficult decision, or was it almost liberating? Because it's like, well, all bets are off. Now I could go anywhere, which means any decision is a good one.

Josh Malerman 4:15
Like, I felt like, like, um, when I take, like, my favorite bands, like, if, well, I mean, an obvious example would be like Nirvana unplugged, right? So let's call watching you about that Nirvana unplugged in terms of a career arc.

Josh Malerman 4:31
Once they did that, anything goes after that, they can do

Josh Malerman 4:35
anything they want. They could make, like, the trashiest album, the most produced album. They can make an acoustic album that's like properly recorded and not live or something. Well, unplugged is properly recorded. But you know what I mean. And like, but what a door that opened for them. He he passes away or dies soon after dada. But what a door that opened because, like, it was almost like wiping the slate clean in a way. And. Can argue the Beatles did that with the White Album. You can this kind of thing. That's what this felt like. It felt like to try to out scare incidents was like, That way lies madness. Like, don't even, why are we, you know? I mean, like, Okay, I'm gonna, you know, hey, Allison, can you stand over there and in this devil mask. And turn, I want to write by Lansdale, light, you know what I mean? Like, what are we doing here? Like, let's not, you know, let in since around the house, breathe in its own space.

Josh Malerman 5:32
And to

Josh Malerman 5:35
follow it up directly with, like, a book, like Goblin, let's say goblin would seem like, maybe too light in comparison. So it in you, we talked about this before, and you wisely said you thought this was the right way to go, because it's like it's letting incidents still have its time. It's so different from incidents that it's not stepping on its feet in any way. And so now it feels like after this, what comes next is almost like act two, or whatever it is, of a career or something. And so again, I mean, I have a fantasy of the non fixed six. That's what I'm calling it. I make these silly, you know, deals with myself like you got to write six of these now, okay, okay, well, that's what I want to do. That's what I want to do now. I want there to be, eventually, be a box set of semi slim, like, 200 page each, non fiction books, all right. And we'll hopefully, hopefully, oh my god, Hap her a career with them as we go

Josh Malerman 6:36
and but let's be

Josh Malerman 6:37
smart about that. Let's use them when it feels like it's time to wipe the slate. Okay, incidents is breathing in its own space. Let's turn this way and do something that is nothing like it at all. And that doesn't mean like, like, let's do a flat out comedy, although, actually that that wouldn't be a good idea, too. And, and you know, you know who did this better than anyone ever did is Bob Dylan, and with, with the idea of, like, reinventing yourself right at a moment when it seems like everyone, everyone wants Blonde on Blonde part two. And it's like, Nope, you know, it's John Wesley, Harding. It's like the most, like, stripped down, sort of like simple, and you're like, wow, wow. Is there even electric guitar on this album and, like, and he was, and is like a master at that. I think Bowie was like that as well. The Beatles were obviously the Beatles are a little exceptional, because it seems like every album was a completely new universe or something. But like pink, Floyd is good at that too, where all, in other words, all my heroes, they reinvent themselves as they go, man. And if you're you know, it's interesting to me that like the who the Beatles, all these bands, they would put out like two albums a year, and they'd be so different from each other, and then a band like the strokes put out their first album, and the second one didn't come out till like, two and a half years later, and it sounded a lot like their first one. What I think happens there is that you almost get married to like, this is again, this is our identity, that one album we have out now, years have passed, that's our identity. This is how we made an album. This is what we do. Where the Beatles were like, wow, we just made that. Let's make something different. Now they've stretched well, now we can do anything, Nirvana, doing unplugged, anything can follow. And I feel the same way here. But there's also this happened. Since writing, watching Evil Dead, I've already written two novels, and now this is number three. So the one that followed it is, like, really a big one for me. It's about 500 pages, about like a vaudeville troupe, which, I think I told you about this idea, and and, man, I was hanging out with Jonathan Lee's, this is a great story. And we were, we were at a horror convention, and I told him the idea for this vaudeville book. And then he's and then he's like, Oh man, this is really good. What are you calling it? And I'm like, I'm calling it vaudeville. And he goes, he goes, that's terrible. That's the worst title you could give that. I'm like, oh shit. You're right. Okay, okay, okay, you're right. So when I started writing, I was like, okay, and now it's called, now it's called the frauds of Phantasma. And I'm really excited about that one, and that one, that one may be coming out in two years from now. The frauds of Phantasma. It's, it's a vaudeville troupe that starts experiencing Suspiria beyond their wildest dreams. And there's, there's a figure in the audience at every one of their shows, no matter where they play. And it's not the devil. Don't think that way. It's more it's more it's more interesting than that. And I love that one. But then the book I wrote after that is the one that's coming out next year. And then now I'm working on this one. You know, this Irish one, because that Alice and I went to Ireland and I fell madly in love with the place. I think this is my first book ever. Without one tie to Michigan. I think this Irish I was going through them. I think it's the first one I've ever written that has no tie whatsoever to Michigan, not even, like in black man wheel. They're from Detroit. In what's the one that I was thinking of that like almost makes it out, but it doesn't go in the cape. They're, they start in New York City and work their way across the country, but they stop in Michigan for a pivotal thing, and that's where the cape is from. So there's a major connection there. This is the first one ever where there's, like, I don't, I don't even, I don't think the word Michigan is going to be in it. And that's kind of liberating, too, you know? So where to go next? Well, geez, here we are on Book Three of that.

Michael David Wilson 10:43
Yeah, and the frauds of Phantasma. I mean that just hearing the title gives a kind of almost 80s vibe to it. You know that 80s nostalgic, kind of esoteric horror, I suppose, in a way.

Josh Malerman 11:00
So I love that one so much, man, because think about it, it's exactly what you were saying before. It's almost like I Trojan horsed comedy into it, because it's a vaudeville troupe, but it's a horror that happens to a vaudeville troop, but their jokes have to be funny, I hope, my God, right? So, like, it was almost like I Trojan horse like, oh, I can be like, funny here in the same book where it's where the goal is legitimately scary. Yeah, frauds and Fantasma is a favorite one of mine.

Michael David Wilson 11:29
Yeah. And I'd have to say, if you ever do decide to just write a full on comedy, if you need a first reader, if you need any, if you want to bounce ideas, then please come to me right here for comedy discussions.

Josh Malerman 11:47
It really meant something to me what you said before, where you were, like, No, but I'm a funny dude, like that really meant something to what you said.

Josh Malerman 11:55
Like, thanks for

Josh Malerman 11:59
expressing that. And I bet listeners felt the same way I do, which is, like, right when I'm writing, like, Hey, man, I'm this kind of guy, it's okay be this kind of guy. Yeah, it was, it was nice to hear you say that about yourself before, like that. I needed to, I think I needed to hear that.

Michael David Wilson 12:15
Rosson, I think that, you know, there's a lot within art and creativity, where we can be afraid to fully embrace who we are, but it is bullshit. You should embrace who you are, and there's always that tendency to compare yourself, to write as who you aren't, which I think, actually, right at the end of watching Evil Dead, and I can't even remember if it's in the afterword rather than part of the main story, but you're saying, you know, Charles Dickens was this, Edgar Allan Poe was that? That everybody let me, let me find that. Yeah, you need to read that part. Yeah, yeah.

Josh Malerman 13:00
That's, that's the part where my dad says, Oh, I wish that I could, I wish I could have sang. I'm like, why couldn't you that part? And then I'm like, come on, come on. Where are you right? It's, yeah, Dad. Are you not as quippy as Oscar Wilde, but neither was Edgar Allen Poe, so are you not as frantic as Edgar Allan Poe, but neither was Virginia Woolf. Are you not as troubled as Virginia Woolf, but neither was Paul McCartney. Are you not as fluid as Paul McCartney, but neither was Dee Dee Ramone. Are you not as punk as Dee Dee Ramone, but neither was Charles Dickens. Are you not as traditionally skilled as Charles Dickens? But you hate traditionally skilled? Are you not as Southern as Faulkner, bilingual as Nabokov, poetic as Toni Morrison or even Jim Morrison? But don't you see, none of these people had what another had, and each had their own way with words. And so it's like so for someone to say, like, Oh, I'm not, you know, I'm no Toni Morrison. Well, nabaka wasn't any Toni Morrison, either, like, and she wasn't him. And so that's, and, I mean, those are two of the most brilliant, you know, minds we've ever heard. So totally, right? And it's like, be who you are, but I think it's possible to be who you are and still have a super varied career, because who you are

Josh Malerman 14:17
is many things.

Michael David Wilson 14:19
That's it. And you know the subtitle is unearthing the radiant artist within. I misquoted that earlier as embracing the radiant artist within, but that's because that's the message that I'm getting. Yes, you have to unearth that artist. That's step one. But step two is to embrace the artist, to love the artist, to be at peace with that, yeah,

Josh Malerman 14:48
and, I mean, this is the main thread of the book, is, you know, early on. I mean, obviously you know this early on, the narrator, Jesus, early on. I. Right? And kind of like the thought comes to mind like, what does the artist deserve? And I know Michael like alluded to this earlier, the question that comes to mind, what does the artist deserve? And then go, who cares? But the question keeps coming back, keeps coming back, keeps coming back, keeps coming back. Like, through this stoned and drunk, like typhoon of a night where, like, the other couple are on, like, their last night, and Allison and I are, like, using the word baby, like Smurfs. Use the word Smurf like baby, can I? Baby, baby, baby, baby, baby, baby, baby, oh, baby, baby, baby, while these two are, like, about to, like, kill each other in front of us. And, you know, I don't know, man, it's

Josh Malerman 15:38
like that.

Josh Malerman 15:42
You know, you can almost argue that that question is the plot of the book. You can almost argue that's the spine of the book. What does the artist deserve? It's it becomes a diving board, and it's got to be every chapter. It becomes like a diving board in every chapter from which I guess I can talk about the night and writing in general and all this like stuff.

Josh Malerman 16:05
And I think, man,

Josh Malerman 16:09
and, you know, I don't think I'll ever again. We were talking earlier. If there's no greater feeling than finishing a novel, then we there's no budget to that experience. There's no budget to writing a book. I understand you have to find time if you have kids, and that's not what I mean. I mean you don't have to pay a freaking camera man and and soundstage and whatever in a photographer or whatever it is, yes, you and a piece of paper. And if there's no budgets writing a book, then that means it doesn't cost, quote, unquote, cost anything to eventually get to what I have found to be the greatest experience I've ever had in my life. So what else are we talking about beyond that? Anything beyond that? I don't want to say gravy, because that That almost sounds like ungrateful anything. Anything beyond that is like something to be like crazy grateful for like these theatrical readings we're doing, movies being made, book deals, all the unbelievable, but nothing is as great as finishing the novel. Nothing is great is as great as finishing the work of art itself. I can say that. Well, in my experience, I can say that as someone who like who has felt that 41 times now and so, and it doesn't count in $0 to make that happen takes a lot of time and a lot of madness, no money. That's interesting,

Michael David Wilson 17:31
yeah, and I think, and I've said this kind of thing before, but there's almost an irony that if you make finishing the novel. If you make writing the novel The goal in and of itself, then actually these other things, like the publishing deals, the agents, the film deals, you kind of multiply your chances of having that happen, rather than if you start off and you're like, I'm writing this because I want to get rich, because I want a New York Times bestseller, because I want it to be made into a movie like I feel, not just other people, but and this might sound a little bit woohoo, but almost the art itself can tell If you're not being sincere. No that,

Josh Malerman 18:22
first of all, I've never heard some color, woohoo. Is that like an English thing to say? I'm not sure, because, like Wavy Gravy, or a little

Michael David Wilson 18:37
you would say Wavy Gravy, Wavy Gravy. We are having a cultural connection here of Wavy Gravy and woo, woo.

Josh Malerman 18:49
Yeah, I agree. 100% agree that like, it knows.

Josh Malerman 18:55
It freaking knows. And you know, who else know? Dude, I even believe that a Facebook post like, like, if I um, like, if I'm feeling particularly like, like, energized about something, and I post it, that post gets more attention and quote, like, likes and all that bullshit or whatever, more than like. One that I may post that actually has more relatable information or whatever like I can I actually feel the energy in that, like the transfer of energy. You don't think you can feel that in a book, and you don't think that the book feels you. I mean, of course it does. Yeah, I'm that's not too woohoo for me. That's like, I live out, I live in woohoo. I'm like, Cindy Lou Who live and I live with Cindy Lou Who in woohoo.

Michael David Wilson 19:41
This episode is just gonna be called Wavy Gravy. That's why I'm taken away from this Wavy Gravy is that your thing is that American

Josh Malerman 19:55
Hippie singer from, like, the 60s, you know, all like, you know, like. Artsy Farsi, Wavy Gravy. You know what I mean? Like, this is all I get.

Michael David Wilson 20:02
Yeah, see artsy farts. See, I know Wavy Gravy, though that's new to me, but an awesome name for a psychedelic band I think, Oh, my goodness.

Josh Malerman 20:17
There's a sense or something

Josh Malerman 20:20
with watching evil dad. Of like, I saw this one. I don't know, I always say girl, but then I mean, she's a woman. But okay, so I saw this one woman. I'm friends with her online. She read watching evil dad, and she wrote this. She wrote a really, really wonderful review, and then she said, this is the most wholesome book I've ever read. And I was like, wholesome that is super interesting. And I think that there's a side of me that maybe when I was younger or something, if I saw wholesome, I would have been like, no, no, no. What does that mean? Don't say wholesome, you know, what am I Tom Hanks or something, you know? I mean, and then, like, she's right, though she's freaking, right? And I thought about it, I'm like, Yeah, watching it with that is wholesome, because it's like, it's, it's like a love letter to writing and and to Allison and to getting drunk in stone with your friends and watching a movie, you know, like, that's, that's what I would hope happens from the book, is that it renders a seemingly

Josh Malerman 21:25
everyday occurrence,

Josh Malerman 21:27
or every now and then whatever like a normal, a common occurrence, watching a movie with friends

Josh Malerman 21:32
renders it heroic,

Josh Malerman 21:35
like that night was more pivotal for me than You know, when Alice and I went to Istanbul. But if I was telling someone like, oh, Alice and I watched Evil Dead with, you know, a cousin and girlfriend one night, um, oh, Alice, I've been to Istanbul like, Oh, what was it like? No one would ever say, Oh, what was the what was it like about watching the movie with, you know, with her cousin, right? What was the night like? Did you have any giant thoughts? So I would hope that watching it with that sort of renders our like, just everyday things heroic, like it's there to be,

Josh Malerman 22:10
you know,

Josh Malerman 22:11
celebrated, it's there, it's happening. And what you and I are doing right now, I could write a book about and immediately all the books that you've been writing, and I would take the transcript of what we're saying, and then I would like, dive off of sections, and wow, you know, he's written eight books. We've been we've been talking to each other for like, 11 years now, at various points in both of our careers. And data on Ryan Lewis and all this like stuff, there'll be all these like things to like discuss between you and I, or about you and I just from this conversation, like this conversation is heroic,

Michael David Wilson 22:43
yeah, and you mentioning Ryan Lewis. I mean, again, at the end of watching Evil Dead, you're thanking people. You're talking about your team. You're talking about how, like with writing, it is less you having a team and all of us together being the team, that's kind of the distinction. And so as you were listing all the various people, I was kind of thinking, what? Who's in my team? Who's part of my story? And, you know,

Josh Malerman 23:15
well, no, go on. Go on, go. I don't mean to interrupt well, both

Michael David Wilson 23:20
Ryan Lewis and Wayne Alexander and yourself have been pivotal parts of that, you know, when I wrote the girl in the video, and then I got, like, the movie interest coming in, and then I wrote to max. I wrote to you, me meeting Ryan, you know you and Max, putting me in connection with Ryan that changed my life, like Ryan has made my life better. And I said this recently in a newsletter, but I've never actually expressed it in a podcast, or nobody's heard me say it. But I mean, if it wasn't for Ryan, if it wasn't for some of the things that happened with the girl in the video movie deal, which I haven't even publicly, properly spoken about, because there's all sorts of NDAs and things like that. But it came about at the point where I was going through the worst time of my life, the custody battle and the divorce. And without that happening, I don't know what would have happened. Like I couldn't have financed the divorce because of that. I had, you know, the financial means to finance the divorce and to be able to see my daughter. I might not have seen her again if that hadn't happened. Wow.

Josh Malerman 24:47
Yeah, that's Wow. It's

Josh Malerman 24:55
changed my life too, but like any Hap, that's to say the least. But hold on. Hold. This is an important moment. Let's have a let's do a fireball shot to Ryan Lewis,

Michael David Wilson 25:08
unfortunately, I've only got coffee at the moment, but it's a

Josh Malerman 25:13
good are you not drinking these days?

Michael David Wilson 25:17
The time difference is, Josh, it's like it's eight in the morning. And like to kind of fast forward, like my life changing, and, you know, there being different seasons and things. So that season of divorce, of the custody battle, that that was a low, although ironically, creatively, it was a high. It was such a weird time because I'm having all these terrible things going on in my personal life, but then I'm getting movie interest in the girl in the video. I'm just like, feeling like, wow, I'm at a moment here with my career.

Josh Malerman 25:57
And you know what you wrote was great. Like, there's that too. Like, it's like, the confidence in the actual book itself, and this stuff is happening from it. I keep going back to this word, but there's identity there. We're like, Yeah, I know that. Like, I know that. Or I just whatever. I believe frauds and Phantasma is great. I believe incidence is great. It doesn't whatever. So if I run into a problem, like throughout the day, even a serious one, I have that I have that I have that I have bird box, I have goblin I have on Barry Carol to like,

Josh Malerman 26:30
be like, we can get through this.

Josh Malerman 26:33
You know, I mean, and I don't, I don't even know if that makes linear sense. It's not like, oh, because I wrote spin a black yarn, I can get through this bad time that's then, no, it's more of like, like, a like. It gives you a more Hap, or a backbone, or whatever it is, like, and I know what you mean, but what you describe the actual financial side that mean, that's, wow, yeah, that is intense. I mean, before, I mean, you know, I guess, I guess Ryan changed my life in that way too. But got married Allison and I and Ryan Lewis came to the wedding. He flew in from

Josh Malerman 27:15
LA to a

Josh Malerman 27:18
part of Michigan that is 10 hours north of where I am right now. That's how remote it is, 10 hours north of where of Detroit. And Ryan flew in. I mean, it's like, I dropped a friend off at the airport after the wedding. And, I mean, I thought it was like an office. I'm like, is this? This is the airport. It was like, it was like a building that's like, maybe, like, twice the size of your house. You know, I'm like, this is the whole, yeah. They're like, yeah, there's like, two flights a day, or whatever. You know, Ryan Lewis flew in with his wife and, like, and so did my agent, Kristen, and that was just like, this is unfreaking believable. Man, it's just unbelievable, man, the whole, the whole thing. One thing I was, I want, well, you go on if you have another like question or topic, but a thing that I was thinking about with or that I wanted to bring up about watching it with dad, was the section on the four of these. I don't know if you remember this or not. Maybe, of course, you remember everything but the victory, validation, vindication and vengeance, and how I sincerely, sincerely try to keep the four of these away

Josh Malerman 28:31
from writing so I never Want

Josh Malerman 28:38
any success from the books to feel like vengeance on someone else, someone that didn't you know, someone that didn't believe in you, or something, oh my god. There's like three, 50 million people, just in this country alone. There's gonna be some people that don't believe in you, you know what I mean? So I never, I just, it's a dark vengeance, although it's satisfying, it's kind of a dark feeling, right? It's getting there's a darkness there. And I never want the books to feel like vengeance. I also never want the success to feel like validation. Because to myself, I never want to be like, Well, I knew I could do it. I want. I knew I could become like a best seller. No validation. What do you mean? Like writing, it was validation. When you finished it, it was validation, victory. I never want the books or anything to feel like, like

Josh Malerman 29:28
a victory over someone else, right?

Josh Malerman 29:32
So, like, if you want, if it is a best seller, you got a movie deal, and then this other guy or girl in the scene, like theirs haven't been made into, Oh, my God, I'm so, you know, I never wanted to feel like victory. So victory, validation, vengeance. And what was the fourth what was it? What did I say? Validation, vindication, which is essentially an amalgamation of the other ones, the same thing, which is like, never, wanted, never, I never want to feel vindicated by the. You know, like, how anything that happens after finishing the book, I never want to feel like you know showed him, you know what I mean. Like, never, no, no, never, never, never, never, never, even if, even if there was a guy or a girl or or a wife or a mother or a friend or a dad or whatever, or fellow writer that said like,

Josh Malerman 30:23
You're going nowhere.

Josh Malerman 30:26
And this is something that Allison, like, taught me for sure, is that however someone is

Josh Malerman 30:32
with you, that's how they are with everyone.

Josh Malerman 30:36
And it's like maybe the greatest god damn lesson I've ever been taught in my entire life. Because when we first met, there was someone that I was like, Oh my God. They're being like that or not, and they're like, and she was like, no, no, but if he's like that with you, that's how he is with everyone. So now let's and she's right, you start to see that. You're like, Oh, right. This isn't, this isn't like a personal attack. This is how this person sees the world. And so now transfer that to somebody that would be in that dark of a place to say to you, you're not going anywhere with your writing right now, you got to be in a real, real messed up place to say something like that real, real messed up place to tell someone that they're not going anywhere with the writing, that there's something they're working on isn't going like that's maybe the worst thing you can say to someone. So what that's, what that is, what Allison Tommy was that that's the kind of person that would say that to other people too, not just you. And when you see that now, all of a sudden, you almost feel like a little sympathy for the person. Instead, you're like, Oh man, you are in a place, man, you know, and, and, I think, you know, a lot of people online, we could all use to sort of avoid the 4v online. I mean, the 4v are rampant online. You know, vengeance, vindication, validation, victory, right? I mean, it's like, gotcha, right? And it's like, well, hold on, let's just wait, wait, wait the book itself. I keep coming back to this, but that's what it is, the I finished the book itself, that's, that's everything, anything on top of that. Like, wait, am I happy that I'm like, you know, like, took the lead on like, a fellow horror author, like, what are we talking about here? That, first of all, that guy, or someone else is about to take the lead on you. So there's no, there's no there's no reason. There's no room to me for any of those things. That's not to say that there isn't room for, like, negative thoughts. Oh, my God, come on. Like, what are we talking about here? Like, what this isn't I'm not Pollyanna. You know what I mean? Like, I understand, and that's also in watching it with that the difference between the optimist and the naive,

Josh Malerman 32:42
the naive

Josh Malerman 32:43
person literally doesn't know the score. The optimist knows the score just as well as the pessimist does, but chooses to react with, okay, we can work with this, or we can get through this, or we can write on top of this. So I had a question for you. You said, when you were going through your crazy period, the art was really good. So are your memories of writing during that period? Like, sort of, like, frantic, emotional like, what are your memories of writing during that period?

Michael David Wilson 33:15
Oh, my goodness. I mean, so during that period? I mean, first of all, I kind of decided so anything I could do to be able to maximize my chances of seeing my daughter, or to make the situation better, I would do that at the start of every day. But once it was done, and it took an awful lot of training, and it didn't always work, it would be like, well, that's done. I've done everything I could do, so now I can't fret, as crazy as it is, because I didn't even know where she was at some point. But I can't obsess. I can't keep thinking about this. I need to know that I've done everything in my power to make the situation better. So now I'm going to use the time for me, and for me that is creating art, that is writing, that is like, if not. I mean, I was gonna say it's my happy place. It's a bit of a simplistic kind of way of putting it, but that that's almost a place where I belong. That is my calling, that is why I'm here. And so, you know, I channeled a lot of my time into into writing. So it was a very productive time. I know, to rob Olson of the arc party, he asked me, was it cathartic? I mean, I I don't know something about that word doesn't quite capture what it was. You know, I wasn't doing it to get rid of. The pain. I think I was doing it in spite of the pain. I was doing it because it was a good thing for me, and actually during that period. So there were two books that I was working on. The first was this one that I mentioned that I'm 60,000 words into, but I felt a lot of the themes and the subject matter was stemming from the situation that I was in, and the reason that I parked it was I thought I'm too close to it, you know, like you would have been too close to watching Evil Dead, if you'd put that out the next day. And then the one that I put a lot of my attention into after was daddy's boy, the most joyful experience that I've ever had. And I think I wrote this kind of light, if we're to call it that book, and this funny book, because it was a way for me to just hold on to my joy, for me to have happiness within this terrible moment. So you know, sometimes when things are lighter and more joyful, I'll write about the darker things. But if things are really, really dark, in my personal life, it can sometimes be more liberating to write about something just a little bit lighter. But you know, then dad is boy, it's, it's not a light book in terms of themes. I mean, in a way, there is a comparison to the greasy strangler, that if you want, you can see it as this ridiculously absurd book with a lot of jokes. It's very playful. But actually, if you look at both daddy's boy and the greasy strangler, if you look deeper, they're about exploring father son dynamics. They're about fractured relationships. I see these two pieces as very much in conversation with one another.

Josh Malerman 37:11
I love that. I feel like jizzly Bear fits into there as well, by the way,

Michael David Wilson 37:15
which I was gonna mention, which we will return to. You know, we're not gonna have this without jizzly Bear.

Josh Malerman 37:23
Yeah, Allison, I were talking like, we're like, it comes up. Like, Josh, you bring it up everywhere. Like we were, we were at our wedding. The photographer was like, smile. And I'm like, Man, I can't, you know, say something funny, you know? And then, and then she did, actually, and then, and then I was like, I told everyone there, if you want to make, if you want to make me, like, genuinely smile, quote, jizzly Bear. And so then people were and it was totally working, you know,

Josh Malerman 37:53
so did you feel like?

Josh Malerman 37:57
Because I had an experience recently where there was something heavy going on and the life stuff, family stuff, and, I mean, like, I was like, Keith worried about some shit, not about myself, but that doesn't matter, whatever I was worried. And I'm rewriting a book and Dan, and I'm like, Oh my God, or I can't let me just think, hold on the months. No, I was writing the book. I wasn't done yet. And then I went back to rewrite it, and it, I was like, Man, this is exceptional. This is exceptional. This is so focused, and so on point. And at the time, it literally felt like I was like, writing like, like, while like, like, the like, in a sauna, like the temperature was rising. Like, it was, like, I was like, nervy, like the hairs on your other arm were standing up. Like, I was like, like, edgy. I'm like, Oh, my God. I have to write for a couple hours, and then I read it later, and I was like, No, yeah, no, that's good. That's good. No, this is good. This is good. I don't, I wouldn't say that, that there's some correlation always, but it is interesting that that can happen. It's interesting that you can be, like, completely the F freaked out

Josh Malerman 39:07
and do good stuff, and not just like,

Josh Malerman 39:12
like, good, like, emotional, like, you know, like, Oh, that was during his, you know, angry period. So it's like a yelling song, and, like, no, no, not. Like, an obvious No. Like, you said, like, this book is playful and, and it was like, how, what? It was almost like, Okay, this is all so crazy that I'm gonna focus on this thing and make sure that it's right, or something like that.

Josh Malerman 39:35
Yeah, I've had that for sure.

Michael David Wilson 39:38
Okay, I didn't get in a way we can create moments of our life that are not within reality through the story. So okay, there's not a lot of light within my life at that point, but I can create some light through the art. It's almost the superpower. To get a little bit Wavy Gravy on you again,

Josh Malerman 40:04
not to be too woohoo. I've never heard woohoo before ever. I'm that's now my phrase. I'm gonna use that everywhere, man, like they're gonna, they're gonna be like Joshua says, woo hoo.

Michael David Wilson 40:21
But right. Let's just there's so many directions we're almost literally bear.

Josh Malerman 40:29
But you think halfway through the interview right now, do you feel like I'm right? I think this is a three hour. Are you starting to feel that way? Or do you have to be somewhere?

Michael David Wilson 40:38
I so I we interrupted one of my thoughts earlier, when I was talking about things kind of going full circle and and seasons. So, you know, I was in the dark period. But since then, like I think the last, since the last time that we spoke, we have both got married. So now, which is pretty funny, pretty crazy, but right now, so my wife is pregnant, so in an hour, in an hour from now, we've got to be an appointment. So I, I think we, we brought this probably isn't a free hour one, but we, we can probably do two and a half hours. But, I

Josh Malerman 41:24
mean, the worst influence, this is amazing for listeners. They're like, so, so you have to be like, like, you know, like, a pregnancy, like thing. And I'm like, hey man, let's do some shots. Hey, man, jizzly, man, it's 8am and I have a wife.

Michael David Wilson 41:41
Yeah, yeah. So, so, yeah. In fact, that that is the the answer as to why I, you know, first of all, it's 8am so I'm, I don't typically drink at 8am

Josh Malerman 41:54
but I would for you. I know you would for me too. If you didn't have to be sorry an hour I, bet you would have

Michael David Wilson 42:01
Exactly, yeah. But as as I need to drive to the clinic and also in in Japan like that, there's absolutely zero tolerance. You can't have any alcohol in your system. You know, it's not a bad rule, yeah, yeah.

Josh Malerman 42:23
So it's a horrifying rule, but, but also makes sense,

Michael David Wilson 42:28
right? Yeah. So no, there are no no shots being consumed at 8am now 9am as time is always moving. But I mean, what? You said, Wavy Gravy,

Josh Malerman 42:46
what you said out of the interview, what just happened?

Michael David Wilson 42:49
Yeah, what you said about you know, you you're writing something, and you were feeling at the time just you weren't sure if it was working. So, I mean, writing this book with John crin and I could write a book on writing that book, there's been so many lessons, I think it's been the most kind of writing lesson book, you know, the most that that has been possibly my formative experience. We'll have to wait 10 years to be able to get perspective on it.

Josh Malerman 43:26
But I did the audio book for watching Evil Dead, and I honestly felt like afterwards I could write a book called Reading watching Evil Dead. This could just keep going. Yeah, rewriting, reading, reading, watching evil dad, you know, you know, reacting to mom's reaction to rewriting, reading, watching evil that like,

Josh Malerman 43:49
again, that's the

Josh Malerman 43:52
once like this is one night the book is one. I mean, I understand it's more, but it's one. Is really the whole platform is one night of watching movie with friends, and it feels like, okay, that could be a book. And then once your mind goes there, like, what can't like, like how the books are arranged on the shelf. You know, I have, I have a fantasy. I don't want this is probably like a dark thing to say, but I have a fantasy of writing, like a will in, like, a 500 page novel, you know, where it's like, like, to this friend, I leave, you know, charisma. To this friend, I leave all the money this guy be pissed the first one, you know, and then, but for real, like, I do see, like, what an idea, what an idea for your last book, man, like, where it's a will, like, but it's your actual will, but it's, but it's 500 pages of like, explaining, like, who you were and who these friends are and family in your life and what you're leaving. Like, why am I leaving this one copy to this one nephew? Because that's the one book that maybe got you started on the whole path to begin with. And maybe it would do him or a different one, and that kind of thing, you know what I mean. And so that this goes back to the

Josh Malerman 45:06
whole, like, the whole idea that, right,

Josh Malerman 45:11
the everyday thing, like, what you're going to do in an hour, like, you can't, you don't think you could write a book on what you're about to do in an hour. Like, like a, like, a medium amount of pregnancy, wife, life, Japan, just after doing this interview too, I mean, I mean, I mean, and it's suddenly you start to see, like, man, these are all heroic, like moments heroic in terms of like, it took focus. It took energy. It took spirit. It took intelligence. It's like patience, whatever it is. Allison and I had the last four months were outrageous. We went to Ireland. Premiered the documentary that I made. Premiered it in Florida. We got married. We I had, like, family trips a half. Well, my brother got married. There was a funeral. There's more. There's two. Wow, town shows that. And I started to see, I started to count, there were, like, 12, 1314, sort of like, major events happening. And I started to equate it with the 12 labors of Hercules. I started to say, like, Okay, so we're on number three right now. And the calendar looked insane to me at the time insane. And I'm like, okay, okay, well, it's the fourth labor of Hercules. And in other words, he had to complete these 12 labors to be like a hero to Zeus, or whoever the hell it was. And I started to see it that way. So Ireland was the sixth labor, the sixth task of her labor, sounds like you don't want to do it. The sixth task of Hercules, you know, and then getting married was like the something like the 11th task of Hercules, whatever. But what happened was, not only did I start seeing it in this sort of like awesome way, it was that I started to see the everyday things. Because even getting married, and people get married and, like, people make a movie and they show it and and people go to Ireland, right? It wasn't like I went there and came back with a Gorgons head, right? So it was like I started to see these sort of, quote, unquote, everyday activities as heroic. And then what happened was the events that followed that revelation felt heroic. And I think I hope again, that that's what watching you, but that does, I hope that it's like, you're like, we don't like, like a movie with friends. Can be more book worthy or just as book worthy as the trip to Istanbul

Michael David Wilson 47:43
and you having these free events, having the release of watching Evil Dead getting married, and the writing documentary premiere all around the same time,

Josh Malerman 47:55
all within like a couple weeks. Yeah, they feel

Michael David Wilson 47:59
like they should be linked, because they're all related. Was this serendipitous? So was there actual planning with the timing to to make them?

Josh Malerman 48:11
Calendar was already like, bananas, and then the dot got into a festival, and then they were like, can you do this date? And it was like, I'm like, oh god, there's no house, and there's no way we can do this. I look down and I'm like, actually, there's a week off there, and we're supposed to be there for three days in the middle of that week. Yeah. I mean, we can do this, you know? I mean, like, like, like, it was like, so I guess that would be serendipitous then, because it was like, everything that came up, like, sort of like fit into the calendar, like there was non stop activity and event, and at the same time, there was room for more. I lost 18 pounds in that stretch, and I didn't work out.

Michael David Wilson 48:58
You were just so, so active, or was that, was that part of being stressed? Or what was he?

Josh Malerman 49:04
No, exactly. That's why I said Dallas. And I was like, I was like, I think that I've discovered that struts is the best diet, you know. But it was more like, I think an object in motion tends to stay in motion, you know. And it's like, in like, after the last wild town show the release of Washington that that was beginning, you need to, you need to come to one of these. Man, we, yeah, we got a big one coming up next month in Connecticut, at story Fest in Westport, Connecticut, where we're doing incidents around the house. Wow, town. Like, the whole troop from Michigan, we're all going there together. And like, You got to come to one of these. You got to come to one of these because there is, there is there is something like, look, I don't, I don't know that anyone else is doing with with what we're doing with this right now.

Michael David Wilson 49:48
I mean, nobody launches a book like you do, but to call it a book launch is like, No, this is a theatrical production. You know? This is like. You know, Sam Raimi and the team remaking Evil Dead with Evil Dead too. But yeah, you know, you know, part of the book watching Evil Dead is talking about, what is Evil Dead two? Is it a sequel? Is it a remake? And, you know, I think in having these conversations in the book, you know, for me, I become another participant. You know, I'm having that conversation too, and I'm thinking about it. And so in, in a way, this book, it's a it's a playable book. You are a character. You are playing a character within this. And I mean, for me, I thought, well, it's, it's not quite a remake, it's almost a tribute or a cover. And then I thought, You know what? It's a love letter. It is a love letter to the original, evil, dead. It's riffing on some of the more extreme bits.

Josh Malerman 51:04
That's amazing. I said, Yeah, as if I had thought of that. I never thought of that. That's, that's amazing. That's a great way of looking at that. Yeah, Alice and I had, like, a little sort of debate about that at the Q and A after, because it was, the movie was screened after our reading, and we had Allison's like, and then even the two was remake. I'm like, no, no, it was. It wasn't a remake. And then she's like, but it is, though. And I'm like, No, but it's not, you know, but she's like, but it is. It's like, you know. Then enough. And then the guy, the moderator, was like, Oh, we open that can of worms here. Are there any more questions, you know?

Michael David Wilson 51:37
So one of the first times that you spoke to me, or I think maybe it was the second time you brought up ghisley Bear. But at the time, you were like, You cannot put this in the episode, you cannot share the link, you cannot speak of this. And it's been really interesting to watch almost this jizzly Bear evolution, where you went from, I'm gonna tell you privately, but this is between us to then, okay, I'm gonna allow it to be referenced in public interviews together. And now, when I got to this bit of the book, like I kid it's like, yes, you have publicly mentioned ghisley Bear in one of your books. So I want to talk about almost this journey from hiring to embracing the power.

Josh Malerman 52:36
It's even on my Wikipedia page now. It says filmography grizzly bear and the documentary that I made to all the books. And I'm like, Yes, you know, bird box comes out. It's my first, not only is it my first book, it's with Harper Collins, it's with Kristin. It's, I mean, oh my god, right. And the you can argue similarly to watching Evil Dead following incidents around the house? Um, how to follow up like the, you know, most, quote, unquote, commercially Suspiria of your artistic life, after you've written dozen novels or more with jizzly Bear, where you're throwing fake poo at each other in the woods and, you know, and and then at the time, there was this feeling of, like, again, like the same fear that's in watching him without, like, where is this career going? Not in a Dan Brown way, but just in Dan Brown. That sounded funny with jizzly Bear, but like, not in a Dan Brown, but but in any way. Like, where is this going? I don't know. So Jules Lee Baer felt like, first of all, it's one of the top five artistic experiences of my entire life. There's 100% no doubt about that. But there was this sense of like, oh gosh. Like, what would Harper Collins think? Or what would this, you know, da na. And then over time, it kind of became like, what do you what are we talking about here? This is like, Is this any worse than Sausage Party? Is this any worse than like, than like, you know, really, any amazing John Waters flick? Is this anywhere like, like, what are we even talking this like, just brilliant, and Allison is absolutely brilliant in it. And then an interesting thing happened, where I don't know exactly how they heard about it, but there's a group of people on Facebook, I mean, on Twitter, at the time, who were like, Josh Malerman directed a movie called jizzly Bear. We're gonna watch this together. It was like a group of like five people, and I was like, oh boy. And I wrote, like, the people in the movie, I'm like, the bear is out of the cave, you know what I mean? I was like, and they're like, What do you mean? I and I screenshot them, like, this group, this book club, is watching jizz the bear tonight. And that night, I Alice and I were out, and I'm like, like, sweating, like, waiting for, like, a reaction online, you know? I'm like, talking to people and Dan, and I'm like, Oh, yeah. I'm like, Oh my God, what do they think about this, you know? What are they thinking about the poupe, you know? And then the reaction was that they had, like, the greatest, most hilarious time. And I was like, yeah, that's all this was the whole time. What was I? Why was I so serious, like, about keeping this under wraps or whatever? And then so then it became, all right, you know what? No this, this counts. This is, this is, not only does it count again, it's, it's similar to the like feeling I get from the from Wow town, the theatrical troupe, again, who does all the readings for the book launches and more. We just did one of the Jonathan Jan's by the way, which was incredible, because we've never done someone else's story before we did one of his, and jizzy bear was the same thing, because it's like, it's like a band, you know what? I mean, it's like, I wrote the song, but Allison's playing the Lee guitar, or singing, Allison singing the song, you could argue in just the bear and Jay is playing the drums and, you know, this kind of thing. It's the same with the group, sort of theatrical troupe, like, effort of it, like, that's my that's my favorite place to be. It's the same reason that when someone says to me, like, what did you think of the, you know, movie adaptation of bird

Josh Malerman 56:20
box? And I'm like, What did I think of it? It's like, the

Josh Malerman 56:23
greatest thing that's ever happened to me. Like, I'm the band taught me, like so much in terms of, like, playing with other people.

Josh Malerman 56:29
Like,

Josh Malerman 56:32
I'm very used to writing the song, handing it off to the boys, and they make whatever music they want to make. I'm not, I don't tell Chad with the play on the bass, same thing with bird box, I wrote the song, and Suzanne beer and Sandra Bullock made the music, and Netflix made the music, whether or not what they make is better or not than what I wrote. I still wrote the song. You know, there's times with the boys where I bring a song is very, very little, like the luck you got. The Shameless theme song was super, super small. It was literally five keys lower. It was like, very little. And one of the members, Burke, was like, raise it a key, raise it a key. Raise it like, kept saying that, add this, add this, add this, and all of a sudden it's just like bright rocker that becomes like a theme song. So okay, it's better now than what I wrote, but I still wrote the song. And then you can argue the opposite has happened, where I wrote something, where I heard like this amazing thing, and it just came out, kind of like this little thing. And you're hmm, you know, either way, I still wrote the song. So I'm used to that. Not only used to that experience. It's my favorite experience. And wow, town is like that. Jesley Bear was like that. Playing in the band is like that. And also it's becoming more and more like that with with Del Ray, where now we're talking about books like watching Evil Dead, and maybe possibly another non fiction book somewhere. After the next two, like, horror novels, that kind of thing, we're starting to feel like, more like, like, as the afterwards said, more like this, like team effort versus like, just me alone, I'll write the song. But okay, they were like, hey, we want to put this, like, giant subtitle on I'm great. I wrote the song. You guys make the music. Here we go. And, like, that's all attributed, attributable to playing in the band. And it's also a great feeling to be like, Okay, you did your part, and now Del Rey is doing theirs. And that doesn't mean, um, that doesn't mean to say, like, now they have to do theirs. That means they're just doing theirs, just like Derek playing the drums and like, that's, to me, that's a super exciting situation to be in, or something. I'm I'm the furthest thing from a control freak that you can get in an artist,

Josh Malerman 58:57
the furthest thing that you can get. Well,

Josh Malerman 59:00
obviously, just the bear is funny, but I wrote it Dan, I set up the camera. I would be like, Okay, go and I would just watch them be hilarious. And be like, that was great guys. And they're like, Should we do it again? I'm like, I guess, yeah, sure, you know what I mean. Like, I don't know if you're gonna top that was hilarious, but yeah, do it again. You know, I'm the furthest thing from a control freak. In fact, I'd rather, I don't want to say delegate, because that sounds like you're in control. I'd rather like we each play our part. Same thing with loud sound we got, I told you, we got that awesome gig in Connecticut coming up, and I had to call each of the members and say, Can you come do this? Well, Jim scores all the readings and and even writes songs about the books and plays them. So I'm like, what if Jim can't be there? Like, what if Jim can't go to Connecticut? What do we do? I mean, he's literally the music of the whole show. And Allison's like, well, you could, you know, you could score it, right,

Josh Malerman 59:56
right? I could.

Josh Malerman 59:58
And if he couldn't have gone. I would, I guess. But it's the fact that Jim and she knows this, it's the fact that Jim's doing that that adds to the sort of band of Mary prankster's That adds to the like, the sense of like this guy wrote the book, that guy's doing the music Allison's doing like, the props and like, all the like, the amazing, like, impossible stuff. Janine and Lily are acting, you know, James is doing magic like you, you like that's the vaudeville troupe, you know. And that to me, that's where I feel most at home, is in like a band. And jizzly Bear was 100% 100% a band.

Michael David Wilson 1:00:34
No, I totally get that. And I think we have quite a similar attitude when it comes to film adaptations, and I was pretty upfront with Ryan from the start, and then I've been working with Alec Frankl, who also works with Rosson Jeffrey. And so with me, it's like, Look, I've written the book, but in terms of what you want to do with the story and with the film, that this is like a collaboration, or this is a comfort, this is your vision. So I'm I'm not really a no person. You know what the most I might be a yes, and nobody knows what we're laughing about now, because that is only visible to us.

Josh Malerman 1:01:30
Inside joke, possible, um, yes, 100% that's and that's what watching evil dad is entirely about. Is that the whole payoff is writing the book. And so anything on top of that is not gravy or Wavy Gravy. The whole thing on top of that is it just excitement that anyone wants to be involved at all, like, I understand Stephen King and the shining, okay, blah, blah, blah. And there's been, there have been, like, more recent examples, too, of guys who are like, Oh, the movie. It's like, what are you what? Like, what are you talking about? Like, like, come on, I can't. I just can't fathom being upset about, um, the fact that a book of mine is being adapted on any level. I just, I just can't. I because

Josh Malerman 1:02:19
if I was making the movie and

Josh Malerman 1:02:23
a million like studio. If I was directing the movie and writing the movie in a million like studio, people were telling me, you have to do this or this. I could definitely get that. I can definitely get like but, but somebody else is just adapting your book. I am 100% just grateful the fact that Chad is playing bass on a song I wrote. Grateful the fact that Jay wore a pile of shit on his head for Griff grateful like, I mean, just come on, man, what are we talking about here? The joy is in writing in itself, and once you recognize that you're never going to top that feeling that if Stanley Kubrick, got a hold of your book and made a movie. It wouldn't top the feeling of writing the book once you realize that then, like, what are we even talking about? It's like, liberating.

Michael David Wilson 1:03:10
This is exactly it. And you know, this is a conversation that I've had with a number of people, and I was talking to Keith Harrison recently. And you know, both of us, we'd like to be picked up by bigger publishers. And you know, I think it's fine to say that's something we would like, but I don't feel like I need it. And he said, you know, he hopes that my self belief improves, and has said, Whoa, my self belief is, is here I totally believe in every single story that I've written, it couldn't be topped. And you know, that's the funny thing. And this is something we've spoke about before. It's something you mentioned in watching Evil Dead, whether the story remains on my hard drive, whether I put it out with this is horror, whether Del Ray put it out, whether anything in between, it is the same story, and I believe in that story, and whether one of a person reads it, or millions of people, it's still the same story. So it's a funny it is a funny feeling to think, whoever you know, financially, I stay the same, or I get rich off a book, it doesn't alter the story. And that's this is going back to the four V's, and specifically validation. The trouble is, when you need validation through other people, this is a good lesson in life, generally, not just in art. You know, don't need the validation of others. Don't need external validation. Be Hap. You know, with what you have, have that be enough? But, yeah, I think about it loads, how almost perception can change based on, you know, how many sales did I get, how many good reads, reviews did I get?

Josh Malerman 1:05:18
Right? So I haven't looked at. So incidents was book 13 that I had published. And so watching him with that is 14, I was a little nervous when incidents was number 13. It sounded like, like extra like, like, freakier assigned

Michael David Wilson 1:05:34
to me, but it's so perfect. You didn't plan it. But that is book 13. That's book 13.

Josh Malerman 1:05:40
Yeah, yeah. I know. I know that whole book when we were, like, flying to Dublin, for instance, I'm like, instance, from house could be a cursed film. I'm literally worried about this flight, you know, like, you know, this is, this is the exact kind of movie that can be a cursed film, you know. But anyway, I have not looked at book sales or a single review since on Mary Carol, so that's 1-234-567-8910, books ago, I haven't looked at a single book sale or a review on like, a I've seen If, like, um, like, if someone tags you in something, you see it. Like, the girl that said, uh, the woman that said, watching him that is wholesome, like, you can't help but see certain things. And I've seen, like, a Kirkus review, like that kind of Of course, I haven't, I haven't looked at sales or whatever, in whatever, however many books that is, yeah, and,

Josh Malerman 1:06:44
but incidents

Josh Malerman 1:06:45
is doing so well that I found myself like, I, like, almost like, excitedly, like, like, is it still doing so well, or that kind of thing. So I did start looking not at reviews, but in sales with incidents. And then I would like, call Ryan Lewis me like, this is freaking insane. This one like incident is just absolutely insane, by far, the biggest release of my entire life

Josh Malerman 1:07:07
and and it's like,

Josh Malerman 1:07:11
so this is something that Jan's and I talk about often, is like, if we go to like, you know, good reads, who? Boy, oh, man. It's, it's not like the bad or something that didn't like it that that bothers you. It's not like, Oh, this is this guy can't write, or this is stupid or, or this was predictable. Okay, okay. It's the reviews that are like, actually wrong. They're wrong. Like, there was one about on Mary Carroll that was like, and of course, in the end, Moxie saves her. I'm like, no, no, wait, nobody doesn't. He doesn't. She saves herself, her and her mom, building the casket that trammed from the ground. Like, no, she, he doesn't save her. He shows up later, you know? And like, those moments are real hard not to like, jump in and be like, that's not what happens anyway. The whole point is, of that is that, like, one time Stephen King wrote this thing, you probably read this where he's like, Have you ever heard of Da? Da? And it was, like, a woman's name, and then we're expected to be like, No. And that is what we were like. And he was like, she was the best selling novelist from, like, 19, whatever, 20 to 1960 or something, like the best selling novelist in the world. And he was like, he was talking about himself, saying that he would eventually fall into obscurity as well, and we could all be like, No, you won't, because of the films and other things and different era. He wrote this before the internet stuff and but that did sign to me. He was right. I didn't know the best selling author in the world from 1920 to 1960 I never heard of not only did I not know her, haven't read her, I never heard of her. And so you can go on to YouTube right now and find a band that has 400 million plays, literally, that you've never heard of. And even when you hit play, it's like some kind of thing you're not into, like, Christian rock, or whatever the hell it is, right? So you're like, you're like, This isn't like, what, like, what at that point, what are plays? What are number of reviews? What are, you know, I mean, and so you just, like, heard this man. You're like, this is like, like, Gee, oh my god. What am I listening to? 400 million and you're like, Okay, so what if I had 400 million reviews in my book? Like, does that mean that I'm

Josh Malerman 1:09:31
good? So once you

Josh Malerman 1:09:35
explode, eliminate whatever, pulverize the number of views, likes, sales, these kind of things. It just keeps coming back to the same thing. It keeps coming back to the same thing, the gratification of finishing the book itself. You got rid of whether or not an adaptation is right or wrong. We got rid of the number of likes the reviews, whether they're right or wrong. I mean, so it keeps coming back to the same thing, which is like. I wrote the book, that's all that matters.

Michael David Wilson 1:10:02
Now say it. I think you have to ask yourself, are you satisfied with the book? If the answer is yes and the discussion if the answer is no, well, okay, you can look at revising that. You can look at remolding it. You can put it in a position so that you are satisfied with it,

Josh Malerman 1:10:23
or, or if you're not satisfied with it, then, and you're like, you know that one? I didn't pull that one off. The next one I will like, there's that brilliant book, Hitchcock Truffaut. Brilliant book where Truffaut goes through every single, every single Hitchcock movie. So there's like 50, whatever of them there are, and a bulk of them are she fo saying, like, you know, I don't think, I don't think that you pulled off what you said, I was pull off here. And Hitchcock's like, No, I didn't, you know Dan at ah. And it's like, wow. So Hitchcock the way you just said, and if you're not satisfied, I mean, Hitchcock felt that way with like, we're probably talking about 60% of his movies. And that's not just a factor of genius because he's a brilliant filmmaker. It's a factor of like, sometimes like you're not like, you didn't pull it off. That's okay. All of our favorites have lemons. All of our favorites. Stephen King has books that we're all like, oh God, and then. But he also has ones that were like, Well, boy, that's as good as it gets. And so why not expect the same thing of yourself, meaning, like, like, if all your heroes have lemons, meaning crush yourself over writing something that you're not satisfied

Michael David Wilson 1:11:33
with. Yeah, and you know, if I bake a cake and that one doesn't turn out, well, I'm not like, fucking hell, Fuck my life this cake. Well, on to the next one,

Josh Malerman 1:11:47
but joke doesn't land right, but then, but then and sometimes, sometimes it's just timing, right? It's like, especially with jokes, but sometimes it's just timing. You put out a book, like watching you with that, you put out a book, and you're like, is this the right moment at this current moment in time, there's a bunch of holy shit and banana shit happening in this country? Is this the right moment for like, a book like this to connect? Maybe, maybe it's exactly the right moment or or maybe it's gonna, you know, people are so upset and justifiably, like, you know, worried about shit where a book like this isn't gonna make sense to them right now. Does that change what you wrote? No. So there's timing. Also, you gotta factor that in as well.

Michael David Wilson 1:12:31
Well, speaking of time, we are almost out of time, but, yeah, but what I want to know is like to kind of finish, I mean, what did you learn about either writing or that night that you wouldn't have learned if you hadn't wrote the book

Josh Malerman 1:12:55
again? I think it's, it's the fact that that just a night of watching a movie with friends is an event. Can be an event, can be heroic, can be

Josh Malerman 1:13:11
novel worthy.

Josh Malerman 1:13:13
And I think, you know, we all feel that. We've all felt that before. We've all had that experience where, like, this was the greatest night of my life, this party, this date, this watching this movie with friends, but then, actually, no, no, write that down. And then you start to see, like, oh shit. This is actually as worthy of a novel as, like, War and Peace, which is about, like, families and and subterfuge and war. And you know, you know, it's like, it's like, wow, watching with that is just as worthy of a book as war and peace, and when you that was something I didn't know, I wouldn't have been able to articulate prior to writing it.

Michael David Wilson 1:13:53
All right, so for anyone who feels that they're out of creative ideas, they're not just look around you, because every day, every occurrence, right there's a novel within it that

Josh Malerman 1:14:08
is exactly it right there, yep,

Michael David Wilson 1:14:11
where can our listeners and viewers connect with you?

Josh Malerman 1:14:15
Um, it's just my name. Josh Malerman, there's one Alan Malerman in case, because people seem to screw that up sometimes in my life, you know, I feel like Instagram, Facebook, I'm working on a third I'm working on a silent movie. Now, by the way, I can't I'm more on this some other time. Oh yeah, yeah. Oh God. It just seems like in this era of permanent opinions and flags in the sand and declarations again, all justified is a little refreshing to like work on a project with no words at all. So yeah, Alice and I are working on making a silent movie right now.

Josh Malerman 1:14:59
I. Responds

Michael David Wilson 1:15:00
us back to Evil Dead, because it's almost a silent movie.

Josh Malerman 1:15:05
Yes, exactly yes. And we saw it. It was screened during the book launch, and I was thinking the same thing the whole time. It's like he was a huge fan of The Three Stooges and and Charlie Chaplin and Evan Costello. I know that that's not all silent Buster Keene and Evil Dead, and definitely Evil Dead too, with the hand, is a combination of horror and or comedy early silent movie era, blah, blah, blah, yeah, whatever. Not on Twitter anymore, thank the gods, and definitely on Instagram and Facebook, though, and also whatever you can email me. It's just my last name in Gmail. All right. My phone number is 248, all right.

Michael David Wilson 1:15:52
Thank you again. So so much for chatting with me. So it's a pleasure.

Josh Malerman 1:15:58
Yeah, it was amazing.

Michael David Wilson 1:16:02
You. Well, thank you so much for listening to Josh Malerman on this is horror. Join us again next time when we will be chatting to JC Morris, if you want to get that and every other episode ahead of the crowd and you want to support me to be able to do as many this is horror podcast episodes as possible, then please become a patreon@patreon.com forward slash This is horror now I'm doing my best to really expose people to new writers and to get new guests on the show. So whilst we do have some absolute favorite returning guests, like Josh Malerman, though it was a year, so it's not like he's on every week, we want to be bringing you writers who we have never spoken to before, and if we include JC Morris, who is coming up next week, in terms of the last seven guests we've had on the show, five of them have been first time guests on the podcast. We are talking Paul gerblish of thunderstorm books, Rosson free, CJ Dotson, Ryan C Bradley, and, of course, JC Morris and we've got a number of conversations with more new to this is horror interviewees, including Delilah S Dawson, who I spoke to this past weekend. So if you just want to support great conversations with writers, if you want to keep the show going, patreon.com, forward slash, this is horror. Okay, before I wrap up, a quick advert break,

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Michael David Wilson 1:19:12
Now. Another way that you can support me is to buy my books, and my most recent book is the dark comedy, daddy's boy. I'd love to get more people reading that. And I said on a previous episode, there's an audio book version too, narrated by Josh Curran. If you want to listen to that, I've got a few more codes that I can give. People think I've got about five codes that I can give away. So if daddy's boy sounds like a good one to you, and it's been endorsed by the likes of Jason party and Eric larocker and David moody, to name, but a few, then send me an email. Michael. At this is horror.co.uk, subject line, daddy's boy audio book, and I'll help you out with that. All right, that about does it for another episode of This is horror, but until next time with JC Morris, take care of yourselves. Be good to one another. Read horror, keep on writing and have a Great, great day.